Congratulations Dance...........

[phat9]

Man, don't you know what you just said in my string below (long and popular one?????

Go back and read it again at the end.

You said, with no BPing, on Viagra (which is a darn good way to benchmark growth, you were .125 inches longer, again with NO bone pressing. Then, you said you didn't trust it because it went down later.

HELLO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It goes down for all of us because that is what it does, but that NBP .125 greater measurement is in fact a REAL gain.

I can't believe you don't see that. That is not due to measurement error or inconsistent pressing, now is it? No, you have grown .

[Dance]

Well I appreciate the thought, I really do, but there is more to it. What I was saying is that after I do lots of hanging and jelqing and take Viagra and pump (that is 3 sessions) then maybe I notice a slight increase over 6. My main hesitation is because it is after pumping. To measure after pumping is just not a true measurement. Yes I understand the point of being on Viagra, but after all that PE it is different than just being rock hard. I will admit it was a damm good feeling to see something and I am closing in on the 7 inch bone pressed after pumping etc. Well in fact I am just a hair under 7. But see my point is that the pumping gives me a temporary gain and afterwards I am back again to regular measurements.

I was curious about something you said. You really did a ton of ulies but got no girth but what about head size? Did all those ulies make the head bigger?

By the way, that Vasoderm was a waste of money. I even blew it and bought two bottles so that I save shipping. I have been putting it on everyday and there has not even been a twitch. Nothing.

Oh one more thing. I totally understand you now when you said you look forward to that fatigued feeling. For a while now I have been hanging and increasing etc and I did not have that feeling. I was looking forward to it because it tells me I am really working the ligs. Maybe they are getting tougher, the ligs that is. Anyway, I decided to keep increasing and finally got it again so am feeling good. I am at the point of having to drop the weight again etc and feeling pretty sore (in a good way).
Dance

[phat9]

OK, you got it. Don't worry if it's small and shrively and unmanly looking. That is ver temporary and shows that work is getting to the darn thing.

This is your "window" of opportunity. Do this, think thoughts about your penis, and tlk to it and actually get mad at it if you want. Tell it you are going to pour the coal to him and make him suffer until it gives up and and the ligs break. Don't laugh.

Now, keep on hanging, even if it's just half max, doit doit doit, till you cannot stand it.

Forget about sex with the ladies during this "window" unless you are able, LOL.

What you want next is this tingling "electric" sensation. It may be one session, two days, or two weeks. But it should be coming. That is where you need to go Dance, and I have had trouble getting one lately after being electric a lot in the fall.

There is still no 100% guarantee,but the chances of gains go way up. After you get electric and cannot endure any more sessions unless you go BELOW half max, then rest as many days a you want to.

Go to the health food store and buy $100 worth of L-Arginine, or Arginine-Orthonine caps, and some Glutamate powder (1-2 level teaspoons full). Start stacking them just before you go to bed, but start low and work upwards of 5-10 GRAMS. You have the $. Before you hang, pop 5-10 GRAMS of L Arginine (tthat is about 10-20 caps). Do this for a month or so while you are in this fatigue "window." This will help your pituitary release some HgH, and you need all the help you can get. Try it and get aggressive,,,,,,,,,,and

save a Chicago Hottie for me, one you have not had, hehehehe.

[Dance]

Ok will do. I do take those supplements but not to that amount. Taking too much Arginine upsets my stomach so I would have to work up to it as you say.
Dance

Missed a bit here, anyway, Dance2 sounds to me like your trying to beat yourself in submission here, as I read it your using physical, mechanical and chemical means to get somewhere, simultaneously. Try using your mind and settling on simple physical routine for a while, that is think positive often. See it working and getting bigger, jelq and kegel and eat and sleep well and take time off ocaisionally. Build up your pelvis floor with kegels, improve your vascular system with diet, improve your physical fitness with exercise and diet, then stick to a simple single method for a while. If nothing else take a break from the stress of making it all happen in a hurry, it won't, your body will only change at it's own pace, encourage that pace. I'm not being critical simply suggesting an alternative approach.

[Dance]

Yes you have missed a bit including the past year of posts lol. That is not an alternative approach as much as just basic common sense. We have all been preaching that stuff for as long as I can remember. I have been doing those things since day one (don't mean to sound condescending here). I also used self hypnosis and visualization since the beginning. But thanks for the thought.
Dance

Dance: I am almost hesitant to say anything in light of some previous discussions. I don't know if these suggestions will help. And you may already be doing these things this way. And everyone is different (age, genetics & state of health, etc.) And there are no magic bullets. But I will make 3 suggestions to try for a month or so and then evaluate them. (1) When you jelq, do half of your routine jelqing it it straight down. This will stress the suspensory ligs at the very front of their attachment, perhaps loosening them up little part at a time. For the other half of the time jelq side to side...pulling it left with the left hand then right with the right hand...l-r-l-r-l-r etc. In the same way wou are putting all the stress on one side then the other, etc. rather than dividing the stress up along the entire attachment area. (2) When you do flacid stretches, do them straight down for the same reason. Mechanically, it would seem that pulling up or out would not put as much focused stress on the suspensory ligs. (3) Do some weighted or unweighted v-stretches. Who knows? I once read this - "If you keep doing what you been doing you will keep getting what you been getting." From the above post it sounds like something is just beginning to happen for you. To what could you attribute it? Been doing anything different lately? (v-stretches, fowfers etc) Take a cue from your own body. That may just indicate something about what may be beneficial for your personal anatomical composition. Good luck, man.

[UIShrike]

Hi Dance!

Well, since everyone is giving you suggestions here (this board is really great, all of us are supportive for everyone), I'll do the same. I've read your posts on the Personal Routines section. I'll give you my suggestions based on my experience, and of a few other guys I know, but I want you to know first hand that I'm not promising anything here, just trying to help.

First, try a routine like this: 4 weeks on, 1 week of total layoff (and I mean total, no light jelquing, stretching, pumping, nothing). I say this because my penis as growned the most when I take a week after for consecutive PE weeks. I've measured this over and over, so I'm pretty sure that my penis grows about 70-80% of the growth from the workouts in this weeks of layoff.

Next, try to workout a maximum of 4-5 times per week, leaving, for instance, the weekends for total layoff too (like above, no light nothing). On the first months you can try to do on those 4-5 days, a lenght exercise, and a girth exercise. If after 2-3 months you don't see any gains, try doing one type in one day (doing more exercises) and the other type the other day. For example, you can do manual stretching and hanging one day, and the other jelquing and ulis.

Now for what constitutes the workouts itself. First thing I suggest, and since you're experienced with self hypnosis and visualization, is right before the workout, talk to your penis (like Phat very well suggested), to you unconcious mind, and visualize you doing your workout for the day, and your penis enlarging with each rep of the designed exercise. Really see what you'll do, hear what you'll hear, and feel what you'll feel. You can do this for 5-10 minutes. Let's call this "Psych Up" ;) you can even do this while hot wrapping.

After the Psych Up, move to the desired exercise. When it's hanging, use a weight that you can only do 2 sessions with. Like if you're now doing 3 sessions of 20 mins with 10lbs, use for instance 15 lbs, and do 2 sessions of 20 mins. You should be done with the hanging in 50-60 mins. Then you can proceed to the jelq. Here, you can use the suggestion of 7 Up, and jelq straight down, or even do the way I do it, wich is while seated, butt on the tip of the seat (almost falling on the ground ;) ), take your hand below you leg, and jelq this way. Each jelq should be 5-10 secs. Reeaaalll slow, really feeling the blood moving forward, and engorging every cell of your penis, making it bigger with each stroke. After 5-10 reps, do a squeeze - put your OK fingers at the base, clamp really hard, and you the other hand to help clamping even harder. Now move your hand a little forward, engorging your shaft. You should only be able to move at most an inch. Keep this for 10-20 secs. Then resume jelquing. Try at first to do 100-200 jelqs, and see how you feel. Also, up the weight and reps in jelquing weekly. As for pumping, I don't have suggestions, because I never used one, but my suggestion is to lay it off for some time, at least during this "experiment".

Now Dance, it's up to you to take my suggestions, and anyone else's and try them for 2-3 months. I won't oblige you to it. But if you decide to do it, give us a note of your progress.

Oh, and by the way, try to measure less frequently. Like weekly for instance.

Ok, I hope I've helped somehow.

PEace,

UIShrike

[Dance]

Yes 7UP well to put your thoughts in another way, "the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over the expect different results." I agree.

Why are things beginning to happen? Because of the help from Phat and the improvement of my hanging. I started hanging at the end of October but was using the foam tubing for the inner piece. It was really hurting the head and messing me up. I was not hanging correctly for months. It was not too long ago that with the help of Phat and me improving my device I have really been stressing the ligaments. I still need to proceed with the plan because it has not been that long at all. Because my girth was not happening I switched to really emphasize the hanging to see if I can get some length.

Your advice.
1. Yes I usually jelq strait down. I also have tried to correct a slight curve by jelqing against it. Yeah maybe I can jelq a little more to each side but do some of that now. The only thing is that after all the hanging when I jelq my ligs are pretty torn up so I am really focusing more on the expansion instead of stretching. I also remember reading your post about jelqing on a curve which I have been experimenting with.
2. Yes when I manually stretched in the past I always put more emphasis on the down stretch and still do.
3. While sitting around I should experiment more with the v stretches. As far as V hanging I don't know about that. I think if I have to time to do that I should be sticking with the regular hanging since like I said I really want to emphasize that for a while.
Thanks,
Dance

[Dance]

ULIShrike,
LOL you must have been writing your post when I was responding to 7UP. When I posted it I saw yours.

Please read my response to you in the other post where I went into great detail about my current routine. I appreciate your time and effort to help. As far as your hanging advice goes I am going to stick with my plan. It is working for me and is following the advice of Phat, Growing and Bib. These guys really know what they are doing and have been hanging for quite a while now. I am really feeling positive about my routine and am going to stick with it for now. If I as hanging 10 pounds it is not like I can just switch to 15 lol. Sounds as if you may not have too much experience with hanging but don't know. I am hanging as much as physically possible every time. As I continue to hang and stress the ligs I am forces to lower the weight. Hanging for only one hour is really now enough. Besides I used to jelq forever all the time and it never did much for me so that is why I switched to emphasize more hanging. Any yes I do know how to jelq I real practically every definition out there.

For your advice on hanging one day and jelqing the next see my post so you understand what I am doing.

As for days off I have tried all kind of variety. Once in a while I will take some time off but as I said I am all set with my routine and need to really give it time because I think it is going to work. Again see my post.

As for you jelqing advice. Yes I sit on the edge of the chair and jelq down. I start at a medium pace and then slow down and put more stress on it as time progresses. While jelqing I then do squeezes and ulies and continue to jelq. Yes I do slow intense ones too.

See my post and then if you have more comments let me know.
thanks
Dance

[phat9]

I do know what I am talking about, even if I don't gain .02 inches per hour.

The advice from UI, 7UP, and the others is good. Your response was on target though, since you have

[phat9]

NEVER eat any protein (meat, soy, fish, milk, eggs, etc) within two hours of taking L Arginine, It will nullify the effect on nitric oxide. The same goes for Vasoderm, which is basically Arginine HCL.

You want an empty stomach, and it goes great with working on your abs. If you "fast" for a day or so, double up your Arginine and/or stack (with glutamine) and the effect on HgH is magnified many times. It's bound to help PE some. Every little bit helps. You can get some impressive boners when fasting and gulping Arginine in large quantities. Really.

Protein kills all the effect. Carbos are OK but empty stomach is best.

[Dance]

Well ok. I never heard anything about that. If I have an empty stomach and take it then I get upset. I usually have been trying to take it not on an empty stomach. I will try again and see how it goes, but at least it will be carbs only.

By the way, a question I asked was lost in all the shuffle. Did you gain head size from all your ulies?

[phat9]

I gained ZERO head size from Ulis, and I mean 6 months of HARD ULIs, to the point my skin was very very swollen and painful. Bib is getting good head gains from ULIs, but he does not hang much any more like he used to.

I did gain a quarter of an inch or so of length.

Try an empty stomach or just one cookie or two. Food really kills the effect.

Like I said , it upset my stomach, and one time it was bad, but you get over it fairly fast, at least I did,and I was willing to endure a bit of stomach upset. You will be able to gulp handfulls after a week or so building up. Your body gets used to it.

[UIShrike]

Hi Dance!

It's great to hear that you're more positive about your routine. After all you were making gains...

As for your comments, first of all yes, I read your post on the other topic, and that didn't affect the suggestions made (follow them if you want, if not, it's ok, just trying to help):

>As far as your hanging advice goes I am going to stick with my plan. It is
>working for me and is following the advice of Phat, Growing and Bib. These
>guys really know what they are doing and have been hanging for quite a while
>now. I am really feeling positive about my routine and am going to stick with
>it for now. If I as hanging 10 pounds it is not like I can just switch to 15
>lol. Sounds as if you may not have too much experience with hanging but don't
>know.

No, I don't have even half the experience of Bib, Phat, or Growing. Those are the guys that you should follow, because in this field experience counts very much. But I gave you that suggestion based on MY experience (I've hung for almost 8 months - 6 straight, and two after some time off), and of other guys. It may seem much to increase 5 lbs in one take, but if you want, try it. As long as you decrease the total hanging time. At first, you may only be able to hang for 15 mins, but that should increase with time. This is because the tension will be greater, so the total time will have to decrease.
But keep what you're doing if you like it and are confortable with it. My suggestions were mainly for you, but there are also other guys who might want to give a shot at that...

>I am hanging as much as physically possible every time. As I continue to hang
>and stress the ligs I am forces to lower the weight. Hanging for only one hour
>is really now enough. Besides I used to jelq forever all the time and it never
>did much for me so that is why I switched to emphasize more hanging. Any yes I
>do know how to jelq I real practically every definition out there.

Ok, you probably won't care about what I'll say here, and maybe based on my fewer experience in comparison to the "Big Guys" out here (Bib, Phat, etc) you might be skeptical about this, but since I want to help, I'll say it anyway. Maybe you're having such slow gains because you're overkilling your penis. I know, you said you tried every schedule out there (2 days on 1 off, 3 on 1 off, etc), but the thing must have time to grow! You can't expect good gains if you don't allow time for it to heal. Have you thought that maybe you're a "slow healer"? Maybe you need more time to rest, and grow... But like you said, you're liking what you're doing now, so stick with it by all means...

>See my post and then if you have more comments let me know.

I posted this suggestions after reading your post, and the others on the Personal Routines section. It was based on that that I made the suggestions I made. But you want to stick with what you're doing now, so do it. I hope you make good gains.

PEace,

UIShrike

[forgedcrank]

i'm goin to the health food store as soon as you reply to this. any particular brand names i should look for?

[Dance]

I have a post in mind to write here, but have to run somewhere. Hold on and later on this after noon I will write my post.
Dance

[phat9]

about "rest" time. This factor varies GREATLY by man and all comes down to painstaing trial and error.

I myself am not one to "rest" enough, and I wonder if it would help me. I plan a rest peridl,b ut then I find myself always finding some way to "cheat", even if just a pump or two.

I try to rest and with split child custody, some rest is forced, but like I said, I finds way to cheat and it stays banged up and sore much of the time.

I hate to wait and I have some long term time constraints that many here don't have.

I have noticed that after two solid weeks of no PE, NONE!, that I seem longer and must more fit over all. That was especially in a strange "sexcapade" with my GF at a resort last fall, when I seemed to be WAY over 9 inches in lenght, and the erection was just hard as nails. I had no ruler (thank goodness) and did not measure, but it sure looked longer than now, sore and worn out. I don't give a shit like I said, because if there is gains, they won't "diminish" just because you stay sore and don't rest, right! I don't get this way (massive, "easy" erection) too easily (without Viag) while punishing myself with hanging. The new Bib hanger really cuts down on foreskin swelling, especially the one he will sell to ya'll, but I push it so much that I stay sore and banged up.

I think I'm tying to say that we in general don't know if failure to slow down, rest and let tissue heal can actually impede, slow down, or even halt gains. I wish I knew the answer. Bib feels that the more you work it the better. Night time sleep will offer healing time when HgH is relesed. A good night's sleep is important, and I fall short there.

But any gains, seen or unseen due to soreness and fatigue, don't "go away" just becuse you donh't rest. It is a cumulative thing, and people like me and Dance are "probably" (not suire though) better off by resting little and stretching hard. Fast gainers like you, Kodill, 7UP, BigBob, growing, JAP etc, are not as susceptible to these sorts of minor "tweaks." That is my opinion based on my observations of over a thousand on this board and from data I got from sites like PenisGrow, Big Al, and Mark Stone. Like I keep saying, there are a few (Peabody notwithstanding, he could be right if we have a "biased" sample, and I think we may) guys who just are NOT going to gain, no matter if they do eveverything you say and more, try all permutations and combinations, and what not, UNTIL the reach some "threshold." I and Bib believe we all have some "bonds" that can be broken, no matter how slow gaining and genetically unsuited, but that could be the two year mark, and guys gave up by then. So, we label them "no gainers" when in reality they "could" have been

I'm rambling, but "rest" is important in here for sure, and you are right. We had dozens of classic strings on rest in the past.
That said, ULI, I could maybe have some improvement with "rest" days and increasing my sleep tome to 8 hours minimum.

But, every time I "lay off" I get ancy and do something, and that leads to a "little more" and a and so on.


So, UI, I do agree with you on many things. As far as me being a "big" guy, I learned most of my stuff by hard knocks, trial and error, reading books on this stuff, and wise advice from Bib.

[UIShrike]

Hi Phat8!

>I myself am not one to "rest" enough, and I wonder if it would help me. I plan
> a rest peridl,b ut then I find myself always finding some way to "cheat",
> even if just a pump or two.

Man, I was like that at the beginning... the first months of this PE thing, were like an obsession to me. I wanted to have a bigger penis, because do to my height (6'4"), and my level of fat, I had a dick that looked (and actually was) so small, that I even didn't take showers after basketball training, only taking them at home, because I was too ashamed of my dick size. In the first months, I did the routines weekly, and also couldn't wait to my next routine, because I was anxious to see gains. But then, at around December last year, I had some personal problems, and had to lay off on the PE stuff for almost 2 months. When I came back, I noticed that I grew (can't remember how much) something. I got curious about it, and decided to do the schedule I do now. 4 weeks of PE, 1 week off. Has been working, so I think I'll keep it that way ;) But I do agree, when we see improvement (any type) we tend to get a little anxious, and this is where things might go wrong...

>But any gains, seen or unseen due to soreness and fatigue, don't "go away" just
> becuse you donh't rest. It is a cumulative thing, and people like me and
> Dance are "probably" (not suire though) better off by resting little and
> stretching hard. Fast gainers like you, Kodill, 7UP, BigBob, growing, JAP etc,
> are not as susceptible to these sorts of minor "tweaks."

I agree with this. If there are gains they should be there, and not go away. But like I said to Dance, I notice most of my improvement after the week of lay off. Usually, after the months of PE sessions, I measure, and normally don't see any, or see only minimal gain, but when I come from "PE vacation" I allways get astounded by the increases that can happen in only one week. But like I allways say, this as been my experience. I only state this here so you guys, if you want, try it like this.

>I and Bib believe we all have some "bonds" that can be broken, no matter how
> slow gaining and genetically unsuited, but that could be the two year mark,
> and guys gave up by then. So, we label them "no gainers" when in reality they
> "could" have been

Now this is gold. This is exactly what I said to Peabody, and what I believe in. That's why I think that even 1/8 th of an inch per year is better then nothing! Even less than that! If nothing else happens, you're at least making your penis healthier. But some guys don't see it like this, and what things big and fast. Only few people can make this happen. I may be lucky to have had good gains since the beginning, or else I myself might have been on the same boat of those guys who just gave up. That's why I say the things I've been saying, I'd hate to see people get discouraged by the gains of one guy being superior to them. Hell, Big Al made an improvement of 2 inches in 3 months, 7UP has been making gains in almost the same time. It took me 1 year to get a gain of 1 inch! Am I discouraged by this? Hell no!! It only encourages me even more, to try and tweak my program further, to see if I too can make gains even faster. And this is the mentality, IMHO, that anyone that wants to make gains through PE must have.

>So, UI, I do agree with you on many things. As far as me being a "big" guy, I
> learned most of my stuff by hard knocks, trial and error, reading books on
>this stuff, and wise advice from Bib.

Like me Phat, like me... I've learned not only from Bib, but from yourself, from JAPP, from SeanJacobs, and other veterans that are out there. That's why I love this board so much, and maybe sometimes am a little too anxious to help, and people misunderstand me.

PEace,

UIShrike

[Dance]

OK here goes. Let me begin with a personal reflection. I have been thinking lately that some people may have
misunderstood me. Here is what I mean. Over the course of the past year there have been many threads such as this which I don't start, and I don't ask for any advice, but yet when people see my lack of results, tons of unsolicided advice comes. Now to begin with, there is no way physically possible I can use all that advice, especially when it does not all agree. No one can. A person does not plant a tree and then before it takes root dig it up and the replant it in another soil. One must use all the information available, develop a routine and then stick with it for a while to determine its effectiveness. Now additionally, some of the advice comes from people that have not been around and saw all the previous conversations and trials so they offer advice without taking the time to read my routine etc. My point is that in my responses I realize it may have come across as arrogant or "been there done that" and that I don't appreciate the advice. This is a misunderstanding I want to clear up. If a person takes the time to write me and offer a suggestion then I appreciate their time and intentions. It may be that I have tried it before or don't agree with it but that does not mean I don't appreciate it. The problem with this medium is that it is only words on a screen. There is no vocal intonation or body language etc and thus the message is ambiguous. Therefore I want to clarify my position that I am not a know-it-all if any of you thought so.

Now to your advice. What I read from you is that you think I should hang more weight for less time. I am hanging as much as physically possible at this time. If I could hang 5 more pounds I would be doing that. At this time I am right around 12 pounds. To just throw another 5 pounds on there is absolutely crazy. The possibility of injury it quite high. Your philosophy of more weight for less time is the opposite of Bib and Phat. Increasing weight is a factor yes, but it is one factor not "the" factor. The goal is to stress the ligaments as much as possible for as long as possible. This may mean to lighten the load and not pay so much attention to the weight as the stress on the ligs.

I hate to give body building analogies cause they fall short but here is one anyway. I go to the gym and see guys lifting much more weight than me, but none of them have a chest like mine. I am only bragging to make a point. Not a day goes by in the club that some girl does not come up and grab my chest and say, "damm your chest is bigger than mine." It is not how much you lift, but how you lift. Correct form, sets, routine, diet and on and on. I don't lift half as much as some but they still don't have my build cause they are lifting wrong.

Now as for a hanging philosophy, when I have advice from Obeone (Phat), and the blessing of that information from Yoda (bib), then I, (young skywalker), must follow that advice if I am to be a Jedi knight of PE. And Phat, when the electric feeling comes I will know the force is truly with me lol. Anyway, as far as hanging goes I am all set.

Now as for your rest days I think maybe I should clarify more. In the past I have totally given myself enough time to grow. I mean I tried a ton of different variables. I just don't think there is some magical formula that once I hit it POW I am going to grow. I think phat is right in that some people grow no matter what they do, period. That does not mean their routine is the best etc, but I know we finished that conversation on the earlier posts above. I just don't believe rest days are as important for the ligament stretching. Jelqing and pumping yes. If you look at my routine you will see there is plenty of rest there. I only jelq and pump 3 days a week, Sun, Tues, and Thurs. That leaves 4 days a week for rest Mon, Wed, Fri and Sat. The jelqing and uli between hanging is just a light one for restoring circulation and really does not count I think. Now occasionally I believe a week off from PE is good, but for me not as often as every four weeks, especially when I have a steam going on. Every 5 months or something like that maybe.

Now I am exited about my routine. I just happen to thing it is a damm good one lol. I have a full steam going and am up on the top of the ship getting ready to yell "land ho." All I want is when I go to the beach or walk around with my shorts etc is to hear three magic words, "oh my God" lol
Dance

[Growing]

Dance,

You're on the right track, you've got everything you need, a lot of knowledge, and mentally focused. I can't wait to see where you are six months from now. Keep up the positive attitude and best of luck, bro.

Growing

[UIShrike]

Hi Dance!

>OK here goes. Let me begin with a personal reflection. I have been thinking
>lately that some people may have misunderstood me. Here is what I mean.
<snip> Therefore I want to clarify my position that I am not a know-it-all if
>any of you thought so.

Point taken. No misunderstandment by my part, at least.

>Now to your advice. What I read from you is that you think I should hang more
>weight for less time. I am hanging as much as physically possible at this
>time. If I could hang 5 more pounds I would be doing that. At this time I am
>right around 12 pounds. To just throw another 5 pounds on there is absolutely
>crazy. The possibility of injury it quite high. Your philosophy of more weight
>for less time is the opposite of Bib and Phat. Increasing weight is a factor
>yes, but it is one factor not "the" factor. The goal is to stress the
>ligaments as much as possible for as long as possible. This may mean to
>lighten the load and not pay so much attention to the weight as the stress on
>the ligs.

You're quite right on this one. It's two different ways of hanging. Your way is more focused on time, the way I do it is more focused on intensity. Your prefer to hang for 1hr with 10 lbs, I prefer to hang for 40 mins with 15 lbs. Now you say that you're hanging the maximum. Ok, but how do you specify this maximum, that is, is this maximum, the higher weight you can hang for 20 mins, or the maximum weight you can hang, period. Because if it's the former, that is the reason of my suggestion. Also, I only suggested a 5 lb increase, it's not to be taken with heart. You could try 12 or 13! My point is, if your maximum weight is discovered by how much you can hang for 20 mins, than if you decrease the time, you could increase the weight, right? But I see your point, and you value very highly the opinions of Phat and Bib (like me also), so like I said previously, I only suggested that for a tweak, because you weren't getting any gains...

>I hate to give body building analogies cause they fall short but here is one
>anyway. I go to the gym and see guys lifting much more weight than me, but
>none of them have a chest like mine. I am only bragging to make a point. Not a
>day goes by in the club that some girl does not come up and grab my chest and
>say, "damm your chest is bigger than mine." It is not how much you lift, but
>how you lift. Correct form, sets, routine, diet and on and on. I don't lift
>half as much as some but they still don't have my build cause they are lifting
>wrong.

My friend, every time I workout with weights (and as been a long time since - $$$ problems) I experience the same as you! I lift following a protocol that is very far from the mainstream - HIT. Almost every big guy you see at my gym (even the gym owner and the trainer) lagh when they see me doing only one balls to the wall set per bodypart. They say that in no way I'll lift the weight that I have on the machine/barbell. But every time I do my set, with slow and excrutiating reps, they allways get a look of astounishment, but then lagh again. I can bench more that some of the buff guys out there, and I'm fat, with skinny arms, but I have a disavantage over them. I have bigger arms then them, so it's more difficult for me to bench the same as them (in the same level of strenght). All this to say that I understand completely your point. I favor form and intensity over duration and explosivness.

>Now as for a hanging philosophy, when I have advice from Obeone (Phat), and
>the blessing of that information from Yoda (bib), then I, (young skywalker),
>must follow that advice if I am to be a Jedi knight of PE. And Phat, when the
>electric feeling comes I will know the force is truly with me lol. Anyway, as
>far as hanging goes I am all set.

Now this is pretty funny :)

Ok, I've clarified my point in response to Phat8, regarding this rest days thing. You're happy with what you're doing, you KNOW it will work, so by all means stick with it!

>Now I am exited about my routine. I just happen to thing it is a damm good one
>lol. I have a full steam going and am up on the top of the ship getting ready
>to yell "land ho." All I want is when I go to the beach or walk around with my
>shorts etc is to hear three magic words, "oh my God" lol

Don't we all :) That's one area that I'm affraid I won't progress much... I'm a grower, not a show'er... and this was one of the areas that I wanted to do the most progress. I've been having good gains in erect state, but in flaccid state... well, let's just say that I'm not that happy with it. And when my dick gets cold (from the weather or touching cold water - wich happens in the beach) it shrivells almost to non existence. This is one area that I'm sad to say PE has not improved... but I'm happy as a puppy when the guy get's excited and triples it's size. Should be cool to show the ladies ;) it's like Dr Jekkyl and Mr Hyde ;)

Best of luck Dance, and know you'll succeed. Like growing said you have the positive atitude, and that's one of the most important things.

PEace,

UIShrike

[Dance]

As for my maximum in hanging, it is the most I can hang at that time not for the 20 minutes. I keep adding one pound until I experience a "no no that too much for now" type feeling. I am not just hanging one hour at 10 pounds. I am hanging more like a minimum of 2 hours hang time a day. If I can I will do more.

As for the body building. I don't mean entirely form and intensity over duration and explosiveness. That was part of it to some degree, but not my point per se. I do follow a pretty conventional system that professional body builders use. As an example of chest, I do 4 sets of bench, 4 sets of incline, 4 sets of cable, and 4 sets of dips. Then I do shoulders etc. I pick 2 muscles to do each workout. At this time my favorite routine is,

Chest-shoulder
legs
back-traps
Arms
rest days are dispersed in there. Something like a (3 on, one off, two on and one off) type of thing depending on how I feel and other priorities.

After a while I switch to
Chest-tri
legs
back-bicept
shoulders-traps

So see I do believe in duration. Explosiveness is also important. What I meant is that many people don't have proper form. Additionally, they are so worried about the weight they don't think about the actual pumping of blood into the muscle etc. They also don't know about compound sets, supersets, diet, water, etc. The most common problem I see in the gym is people working too many muscles at one time with not enough intensity, and then returning too soon to the same muscle. I did this for years. An example it,
Mon Chest-shoulders-traps
Tues back-bicepts-legs
Wed rest
thurs Chest-shoulder-traps
fri back-bicepts-legs
The problem is not enough intensity for the muscle and not enough rest as well.
This clarifies what I was saying. I know this seems to support your view of PE and it should work. I did try it that way for quite a while. For instance, jelq and uli really hard and then rest etc. Like I said, analogies to body building only go so far because the penis is a different thing.
Dance

[phat9]

As of Sunday night of this week (4-22-01) I will have spent about 23 HOURS total hanging anywhere from 12 pounds to 23 pounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is BOTH time AND intensity.

I am also using various "positions" that intensify the stretch, but require extra size to maneuver.

Just wanted you to see the contrast between your minimal time and my time espended. It is a vast contrast, as is mine with Bib's. My whole week was 2-3 days for Bib.

And yet, with your minimal time (and intensity comparison wise), I get less in one year than you get in one month!!!!!!!!! Bummer.

It's all relative.

[UIShrike]

Dance and Phat,

>As for my maximum in hanging, it is the most I can hang at that time not for >the 20 minutes. I keep adding one pound until I experience a "no no that too >much for now" type feeling. I am not just hanging one hour at 10 pounds. I am >hanging more like a minimum of 2 hours hang time a day. If I can I will do >more.

>As of Sunday night of this week (4-22-01) I will have spent about 23 HOURS
>total hanging anywhere from 12 pounds to 23 pounds!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is BOTH
>time AND intensity.
>I am also using various "positions" that intensify the stretch, but require
>extra size to maneuver.
>Just wanted you to see the contrast between your minimal time and my time
>espended. It is a vast contrast, as is mine with Bib's. My whole week was 2-3
>days for Bib.
>And yet, with your minimal time (and intensity comparison wise), I get less in
>one year than you get in one month!!!!!!!!! Bummer.
>It's all relative.

Bib, as made a point in another post that was what I was trying to reach, but seems that I couldn't clarified it well enough. This is what I'm talking about when I say hang less time with more weight (if possible).

>4)Yes, I believe I could have received the same results in less time. Once you
>reach the point of total fatigue, there is little benefit in continuing that
>session. Then I believe there is little benefit in starting another session
>(next day)until fairly recovered from the previous session. This may take six
>hours or twelve hours or twenty-four, or forty eight hours.
>Fairly recovered means that the soreness from the previous session is greatly
>reduced. This varies according to individual and session. Usually, I could
>recover within hours (a nights sleep).
>If you are in an 'electric period', you should hang for as much as you can
>until you have to reduce your max weight by half. I would consider that total
>fatigue. If there is any pain, stop. If the discomfort is too great, stop or
>reduce weight.

This exactly what I've been doing! Previously, when I didn't start the program I'm now, I too hanged for time, like you! I hanged almost everyday, with maximum weights. And I got results. Minimal, but results none the less. And then I stumbled in this intensity idea. And I started to hang for less time. with a little more weight. Guess what? Better gains. Why? I think because do to the increase of resting time. And this was my advice all along. If you're "killing" your penis with hanging sessions of more than 1 hr, per day, then, if you're an easy gainer, you'll gain, if not, you'll gain but taking more time, because your dick doesn't have time to heal precisely. I know that you guys have tried allmost all the regimens out there. I'm not questioning you or your methods, please understand this. I'm only trying to say that in my experience (and not only mine) when you surpass your level of recovery, wich can happen very easily with hanging, your penis will grow much more slower. And the more time you add, the less the growth will be. This is the point that I believe in. I'm not saying that you're doing wrong or anything. I'm just saying this because I'm not that new with this stuff, and I experimented a lot on the past year.

But like I allways say, if you're happy with what you're getting, if you feel you've tried it all, and this is the best method for you, that go with it! I'm just making suggestions.

PEace,

UIShrike

[Dance]

The only thing is that when bib is talking about total fatigue, that is not something that came from only one hour of hanging but is still hours to get to that point.

[UIShrike]

Ok Dance,

I think there's no point in continuing this thread... your response is not what I understood from reading Bib's post. We have different ideas and I don't seem to be getting mine to pass (language difficulty perhaps). So I think we're getting nowhere with this. I've made my point, posted my opinion, and you (and Phat) have a different one. I respect that (very much) and I advise you to keep doing what you like. We're getting caught in "minor details" here, and no point keeping at it. I wish you the best of gains.

PEace,

UIShrike

[Bib]

UIShrike,

I think the problem is not language, but rather perspective. What everyone must realize is that each individual has 'hands on' experience with only one penis. Your physiology, what you feel, your recovery time, general health, and pain tolerance, to name a few, may be totally different from someone else. Also, it is hard to quantify things such as fatigue, pain, etc..

That is why I always try to write in general terms. My specifics are different. That is also why guys have to develope their routines on their own, with advice and counsel. No one can know exactly what others may be feeling.

To address the issue. First, rest is very important at all stages of PE. You are correct in saying there must be time for healing and repair. But the implication that more 'controlled damage' can not be done while previous damage is healing would be incorrect, in my opinion.

This can be looked at in two ways. The areas (actual fibers) which were stressed may take a couple hours to heal. Or a couple days, weeks, etc. If minimally stressed, they may be stressed again without damage. Further, different techniques and hanging angles will stress different areas. You may be able to totally stress one area on one day, and then another area the next day without affecting the first area. This is possible.

About the only way to evaluate the level of previous work is visual inspection and feeling. One person may hang or milk for eight hours and be fine the next day. Others may only take a couple hours to recover. Many times I was able to hang all day, reach total fatigue, and within five hours, hang at my maximum weight again.

What is hard to understand for many is the ability for one person to work for one hour at maximum intensity and reach total fatigue. Then another person can work for eight hours at maximum intensity, and may not be fatigued at all.

The only way to attack this question is for each individual to learn as much as possible; both in techniqes, physiology, and how their body reacts to the stresses. Guys who have been PEing for months should have learned a lot within that time frame and should have become comfortable with the level of rest needed.

Bigger

[UIShrike]

Hi Bib!

First of all thanks for taking the time to give your precious input on this. I imagine that you're very busy at this time, with all the related things dealing with the new hanger, so I appreciate your input very much.

>I think the problem is not language, but rather perspective. What everyone
>must realize is that each individual has 'hands on' experience with only one
>penis. Your physiology, what you feel, your recovery time, general health, and
>pain tolerance, to name a few, may be totally different from someone else.
>Also, it is hard to quantify things such as fatigue, pain, etc..
>That is why I always try to write in general terms. My specifics are
>different. That is also why guys have to develope their routines on their own,
>with advice and counsel. No one can know exactly what others may be feeling.

I agree with this Bib! That's even why I suggested what I did. Since what Dance (and other guys that probably won't post) was not getting gains, I suggested a little change that worked for ME. And I've been allways carefull to say this. My suggestions are based on my experience, and of a few other guys, so it's not just one penis experience were talking here :) That's why I suggested that, because if you keep doing a thing that isn't working, you should try a new one.

>To address the issue. First, rest is very important at all stages of PE. You
>are correct in saying there must be time for healing and repair. But the
>implication that more 'controlled damage' can not be done while previous
>damage is healing would be incorrect, in my opinion.
>This can be looked at in two ways. The areas (actual fibers) which were
>stressed may take a couple hours to heal. Or a couple days, weeks, etc. If
>minimally stressed, they may be stressed again without damage.

Ok Bib, here I don't totally agree with you. But I'll say this from the start. You have far better knowledge and much greater experience then I have, so you probably are right and I'm wrong. But I don't view things like this. I belive that if you exercised your penis to exaustion, meaning allmost all of the fibers constituting the penis and adjacent tissues are exausted, then if further stress is imposed on this same tissues, even controlled stress, without it recovering, at least to 50%, then further stress will only cause a decrease in the recovery capacity, overstressing the tissues, taking therefore more time to recuperate from that stress. I've seen studys about stress induced in different types of tissues (and I'm very sorry I don't remember them, I only recalled that I've seen them related to the weight training field, although the studys involved allmost all of the tissues in the body, and not only muscle tissue), and this is the conclusion I got from them. I only wish I could remember where I've seen them, so you could give your opinion on this. But like I said, you've got much more knowledge and experience than I, so you probably are right about this. It didn't work for me, but...

>Further, different techniques and hanging angles will stress different areas.
>You may be able to totally stress one area on one day, and then another area
>the next day without affecting the first area. This is possible.

With this I agree totally, although you can never fully isolate one area, you can decrease very much the stress in one particular area, using different techinques. Maybe this is why I'm gaining very well, because I cylce two different workouts (with different techniques) per week, and I've got 4-5 different workouts total, so In one given month, I only do the same exercise 2 weeks.
But I didn't get this point from Dances posts (maybe I missed it, and if that happened, I'm sorry for that), so I understood that he hanged in the same direction, for more than one hour (if he felt like it). And this is what I think is deterimental for better gains (see above why).

>About the only way to evaluate the level of previous work is visual inspection
>and feeling. One person may hang or milk for eight hours and be fine the next
>day. Others may only take a couple hours to recover. Many times I was able to
>hang all day, reach total fatigue, and within five hours, hang at my maximum
>weight again.

I agree with this 100%. That's why experimentation is the best way to suit a workout to yourself and your levels! But this experimentations as to be done "scientificaly" that is, keeping all variables controled, except one (the one that's being tested). I have some knowledge on Experimental Physics, so I have a good background on this field, and maybe this has helped me with my experimentations.

>What is hard to understand for many is the ability for one person to work for
>one hour at maximum intensity and reach total fatigue. Then another person can
>work for eight hours at maximum intensity, and may not be fatigued at all.

Yes, this is very hard for me to believe, but like I said you have further more knowledge and experience. For me, and in my experience and of others, when working with maximum intensity, there's a level that allmost no one can pass (and I say allmost no one because there are allways exceptions). And with hanging, I think that level is in the 1-1 1/2 hours of hanging (total time). But like I say this is my experience. So take this with a grain of salt.
Near maximum intensity (because if it was maximum intensity, everything would break up :) ) can only be tolerated for few time, due to the nature of the tissues itself. Because if you're micro-breaking your tissues, for them to grow bigger, there's only one point to where the body will let you do it. Surpassing that point will only cause more harm than benefit. Also to clarify my points, I'm not saying all this because I'm a graduate on this fields, or because I read it somewhere and thought this might apply here, I only say what has been brought by my school knowledge (Biology and Physics), my experience and that of a few others. I'm no scientist, I'm not graduate (I don't hold a high degree on any area), I'm only curious, and self taught in the areas that I like to be better, so take every and all opinion from me as this and nothing else. Just to clarify any misunderstandings :)

>The only way to attack this question is for each individual to learn as much
>as possible; both in techniqes, physiology, and how their body reacts to the
>stresses. Guys who have been PEing for months should have learned a lot within
>that time frame and should have become comfortable with the level of rest
>needed.

This is essential if one wants to suit his program for himself. I agree completely.

Again, thanks for your time, and feel free to destroy my postitions on the subject :)

PEace,

UIShrike

[Bib]

UIShrike,

There are two other points to consider along these same lines.

One is the time constraints of each individual. Sometimes a guy may have so many minutes or hours to PE each day. Sometimes he is bound by five straight days with two straight off (like me). And sometimes he is able to PE many hours one week and none the next (kids etc.). If he is not totally fatigued but still sore during a period, and he has a long layoff coming up, it would be wise to PE while he can, maybe at a slightly reduced intensity if needed.

Also, the level of intensity and time PEing depends upon his stage of development. A newbie must start slow, and slowly add time and intensity. Someone who has PEed for a year will have a much stronger penis, and it will take much more to stress the tissues. Intensity alone will not do this for the most part. It takes time and intensity.

>Yes, this is very hard for me to believe, but like I said you have further more knowledge and experience. For me, and in my experience and of others, when working with maximum intensity, there's a level that allmost no one can pass (and I say allmost no one because there are allways exceptions). And with hanging, I think that level is in the 1-1 1/2 hours of hanging (total time). But like I say this is my experience. So take this with a grain of salt.

First, when I talk about max weight, I mean the amount of weight or stress that it takes to get a good stretch and that worked out, fatigued feeling. This may or may not be the maximum weight at which you can possibly tolerate. It is wise to stay away from that amount, because of the increased possibility for injury. Pain or great discomfort is the method our body uses to tell us to stop. Usually this is wise counsel. Pain is also an indicator of the amount of time to put in. If you hang for two sets (forty minutes) and develope actual pain, then stop, even if you planned to hang for an hour. The extra set is not worth the risk.

There have been many, including myself, who can hang at this maximum weight for hours. From time to time, I could have hung more weight and decreased the time, but I felt the danger was too great. Once again, this is something each individual has to decide and plan for himself. The old risk/reward relationship. At the other end of the spectrum, without hanging much for the last several months, I could probably hang 15-20 pounds for 1 1/2 hours (with breaks) and not feel any work. Conditioning.

You make really good points and this is one of the best threads I have seen in a while. Please continue to give advice to others, because that is the only way for all to make progress. Even if your counsel only helps half of the guys who read it, that is still a lot of help. Whatever your opinion, the reader always has the opportunity to accept or reject the advice.

Good job,

Bigger

[Bib]

Guys,

Check your messages after posting because I had to repost and edit the above three times before ezboard got it right. It kept cutting off part of one paragraph.

Bigger

[UIShrike]

Hi Bib!

>One is the time constraints of each individual. Sometimes a guy may have so
>many minutes or hours to PE each day. Sometimes he is bound by five straight
>days with two straight off (like me). And sometimes he is able to PE many
>hours one week and none the next (kids etc.). If he is not totally fatigued
>but still sore during a period, and he has a long layoff coming up, it would
>be wise to PE while he can, maybe at a slightly reduced intensity if needed.

Ok, here I agree with you. The program has to be flexible enough to adapt to those circumstances you mentioned. For instance, right now in my life (and probably for the next few years) I'll only be able to devote 30-60 mins of total, focused, and absolutely comitted time to PE for 4-5 days a week. And I try to design my workouts around this. There is no way (although I would like it) that I could hang for 1+ hour in one day. I don't have the time for that, so I have to use more "intense" exercises. Maybe the gains would be greater if I could hang, but I'm pretty satisfied with what I'm getting. You have to work with what you've got available :)

>Also, the level of intensity and time PEing depends upon his stage of
>development. A newbie must start slow, and slowly add time and intensity.
>Someone who has PEed for a year will have a much stronger penis, and it will
>take much more to stress the tissues. Intensity alone will not do this for the
>most part. It takes time and intensity.

Agreed here. Although, like I said on the other post, there's a point where a given level of intensity (near maximum) for a given period of time is enough, and when you cross this, it will only do harm. That's why, when you up the intensity, you must decrease the time, in the same level of strength of the tissues. That is, for example, if I jelq for 200 reps with a 5 sec rep cadence, if I increase the rep cadence to 10 secs (increasing thereby the intensity), the reps must go down to 100, or else it'll be too much. Of course this is not linear, but there's no need to complicate things :)

With the rest I agree with you, but there's one thing: for a person to up the intensity on hanging, and if you use, for example, 20 lbs for 1 hr, your penis can stand the pressure of at least two more pounds, but the release as to be more slow. This is my belief, and is something I use when I hang (very sporadicaly). Also, it all depends on the quality of the hanger (and in this part you have profound knowledge), because if the hanger distributes the weight on the wrong areas, you can only stand one weight, but if you use a better hanger (like the bib or modified bib), the weight distribution is more evenly, and there is less force per inch of surface. This way you can increase more pounds that you would otherwise. Also, when we manual stretch, we use forces much greater than when we hang (especially guys with strong hands), and if applyed carefully and evenly, there is no harm done. This is why I suggested to Dance to up 2-3 lbs (although originaly I said 5 lbs - wich I've done - but it was only an example) in hanging weight, decreasing the session time.

You're quite right, this has been one of the best discussions here, and a lot of the new guys should read this, because there is a lot of views, information and techniques that people can learn, to increase their knowledge on the subject (if not to use them at least).

Thanks for your words Bib!

PEace,

UIShrike