If you PE, READ THIS

[RB]

In case any of you weren't aware, the Legendary Bib has hypothesized a theory that he posted over at Thunder's. It has proven to be revolutionary, and really allows one to tailor their pe program to what their dick needs to provide the best chance at continual gains without stagnation.

Here's the thread-

http://www.thundersplace.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8882

I highly advise all who aren't familiar with this to read it, understand it and apply it to your unique situation. With it, you can formulate your personal plan and ensure that you are working on moves that maximize your growth potential.

[Tekcon]

Anyway you can post a copy over here. I can't register or login in on at Thunders Place anymore.

Thx

[RB]

Why? Were you banned or something?

Bib's thread is now about 14-15 pages long, so getting the entire thing over hear is impossible, but here's the meat of his theory in his post after collecting data from members. By the way, when you see LOT, it refers to loss of kegel, or point at which you no longer feel a tugback when stretching your dick and doing a kegel. When lying on your back, 12:00 is straight up towards your chin, 6:00 is straight down towards your feet-

Theory:

The shorter, tighter or higher the ligs, the higher the angle required to lose ‘tugback’ when stretching the penis and kegaling at the same time.

The shorter, tighter, or higher the ligs, the more ‘inner’ penis, and the more quick, easy gains which are possible, and possibly the more total gains which are possible as the ligs are lengthened.

The longer, looser, or lower the ligs, the less ‘inner’ penis, and the harder the gains and possibly less total gains which are possible.

The longer time spent PEing, the lower the angle at which tugback is lost due to a lengthening of the ligs. This assumes PE is performed at lower angles, at least somewhat, by all subjects.

The less time spent PEing, the higher the angle at which tugback is lost because ligs have not been stretched.

For those with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs, a lengthening of the ligs correlates with a lowering of angle of tugback loss, and an increase in penis length.

Assumption: Those with more length gains started with shorter, tighter, or higher ligs and their ligs have been lengthened through PE. It would be nice to have starting measures for tugback loss and erection angle, but I think the stats speak to this problem. I know that for myself, before PE, my tugback loss angle HAD to be extremely high. If you started with high ligs, and you have made good gains, you will probably recognize that your entire package is now lower, indicating an increase in the length of your ligs.

As concerns erection angle vs. tugback angle loss, it must be realized that other factors affect erection angle other than lig tightness such as erection strength and tunica shape.

Analysis

I used Excel to create a table of data. Then, I correlated the variables in pairs. The only calculation made from the data was gains per month. The variable, “loss of tugback” is abbreviated as LOT. It is measured from 12:00 or straight up, to 6:00 or straight down.

The following is a rough analysis of the data given by the above 24 guys. With only 24 subjects, the results cannot be deemed to be conclusive, but I think it points to some definite tendencies and some rough guidelines can be produced. Hopefully, we can get some more participants to improve the reliability of the theories.

I will look at the data in three groupings and discuss the relevant correlations: Total participants, guys over and under 1.5 inches of total gains, and guys over and under 0.083 inches gained per month.

Total data:

Only minor correlations can be found when looking at all participants. Apart from things that are obvious, such as total length being highly correlated with gains (0.875), there is only one relevant correlation. That is as time goes on, gains per month goes down, correlation= -0.605.

There are minor negative correlations between LOT and total length (-0.27), and LOT and gains (-0.24). This is a result of big gainers lowering the LOT as gains and therefore total length increase.

There is also a slight correlation between LOT and erect angle (0.22). The lower the angle of LOT the more lig stretch and gains. The looser ligs result is a slightly lower erection angle. This shows up in the amount of time spent PEing and erection angle with a (-0.356) correlation.

Gains:

It has been obvious to me for a long time that physiology has a lot to do with gains. I think this can be examined by everyone, and especially new guys by testing the LOT and comparing to others. So, in this context, I wanted to look at two groups, high gainers and low gainers. For this analysis, I divided the two groups by the median total gain which is 1.325 inches. This gave two equal groups. The high gain group contains RB, DLD, Avocet, Dino, SWM, Goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, Pinocchio, and me. The low group contains restnom, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, Realpuffus, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.

Things become somewhat clearer when looking at the data in this manner. It becomes obvious that for the high group, as LOT goes down, gains (-0.768) and total length (-0.712) go up. For the low group, there was NO correlation.

Truly interesting is the correlation between erection angle and LOT. For the high group, as LOT goes down, erection angle goes up (-.044). For the low group, as LOT goes up, erection angle goes up (.053)!!

Also, the relation to time and gains per month is clear; (-0.73) for the high group, and (-0.63) for the low group.

Gains per month:

The next step was to further group the data by dividing into two groups according to gains per month. This gives the ability to see the problem with hard gainers.

The median of the 24 subjects is 0.083inches per month. Those in the higher group are; RB, DLD, avocet, Growingup, WestLA, Long2Blong, goingdeep, toid, dasheming, Hobby, luv, and me. Those in the lower group are; retsnom, Realpuffus, Dino, SWM, Phat, Johan, SS4, Sappy, Pinocchio, j384, Penismith, and mike2002.

These groupings revealed some interesting results.

For the high group, as total length is increased, LOT is decreased (-0.75). For the low group, there is a small POSITIVE correlation (0.19). Also, for the high group, as gains go up, LOT goes down (-0.756). For the low group, as gains go up, LOT also goes UP (0.433)!

For the high group, as time goes up, LOT goes down ((-0.72). For the low group, there is again a small POSITIVE correlation (0.25).

Summary:

So what does all this mean? I think the best way to examine it is to look at individuals. First, as I said before, the assumption is that big gainers started with high tight ligs. That was my situation. Looking at the big gainers, the more gains, the lower the LOT. This seems to firmly indicate a lengthening of the ligs allowing a significant portion of penis to be revealed. The biggest gainer, DLD has the lowest LOT, 6:00. RB, avocet, toid, and I are tied for 2nd at 7:00. While some of us could profit from more lig work, the majority of future gains will come from tunica stretch. We have some long ligs.

The other members of the high group, while getting good gains, probably mostly from lig stretch, still have good potential for gains in the ligs, either hanging or stretching at lower angles. Dasheming has already gained 1.75”, but has a LOT of 9. He might be a big’un some day.

Gains problems in the lower group are evident. The problems of Johan, Sappy, SS4, j384, Penismith, and mike2002 are fairly plain. They all have very low LOTs, but not much gain to show for it. Their LOTs are as low as the big gainers. To me, this indicates that they ALWAYS had a low exit point and therefore little inner penis. They did not have the opportunity to get any easy gains. Through hard work, several of them have made gains over time, probably mainly through tunica stretch. They should concentrate on working the upper angles of hang or stretch. Also, DLD twists and upward lateral stretches might be the ticket. With consistent dedicated stress, at the upper angle, they should make progress.

Retsnom, Realpuffas, Dino, SWM, Phat, and Pinocchio are a little different. They do have potential in their ligs to gain more length from lig stretch, even though some of them have already gained pretty well. But they have had to put in a tremendous amount of time and effort to get those gains, probably because of some really genetically tough collagenous tissues. Sometimes, that is just the way it is. The only thing to do is try to find ways to increase the stress, still working lower angles, and they should be able to get plenty more gains.

I had a lot of other crap I wanted to write about, but damned if I can remember what they were. Questions would be appreciated.

Bigger

[RB]

Here's my correlation to the theory I posted in his thread-

Absolutely amazing. Here's my story-

Over the 4 months, about the time DLD introduced the blasters to us all, I started concentrating on lig stretching. I assumed, blindly that my gain stagnation was due to not working the ligs, which I don't recall ever directly concentrating on, so I went after them. I had minimal gains over the 4 month period. Over the past few weeks, I gave up on lig stretching, and decided to attack the tunica. I developed a modified A stretch using piping, and have been going all out on my tunica.

Now I read this. According to Bib, I already have long ligs (LOT at 7:00), so for more gains I should concentrate on tunica stretching. Interesting. Last four months, mostly lig stretching, minimal gains. I was putting alot of effort where the potential for gains was minimal, so that's what I got.

Based on my last few weeks of tunica attack, I can see positive signs of length gains, but I don't plan to measure until 4-4-04.

Based on my anecdotal evidence, Bib certainly nailed it... Amazing...

So Bib, based on your theory, for me to get future gains do downward stretching until my LOT is 6:00 the abandon it while hammering the tunica as much as possible? If so I'm stoked, as this is EXACTLY what I have settled into and it feels GREAT!

For what it's worth, since posting that the majority of my pe is concentrated on my tunica, and I am gaining again. 1/4" last month, I'll measure again on 5-4-03. I expect more gains. This is really good shit, guys.

[YGuy]

Its really a great thread. I had a LOT of 6 o'clock, so my ligs had maxed out their potential.

I'm up to 8.5" bone pressed flaccid stretched, since only doing tunica stretches. Thats .25" in less than 3 weeks.

Thanks Bib. You never cease to amaze me.

[goingdeep]

yeah. I was really stagnated in the growth department. Hanging with more weigth and for longer periods did nothing. DLD gave me some tunica stretches and the gains started immediately. This was after months of no gains. Then Bib's theory confirmed that I had pretty much maxed out my lig gains and I need to concentrate on tunica gains. Like everyone has said, Bib really hit the nail on the head with this one.

[Degarmo]

So What is catagoriesed as a tunica stretch? I'm not sure I'm testing this right, but I think my lot is about 6:00 or 7:00, Maybe higher. I am not sure what the tug is supposed to feel like... I would really like to understand this more though, if it means quicker gains...

[RB]

Degarmo, basically if you can feel your pc muscle tugging your dick back towards your body while you lightly stretch it, that is it. You want to find where you lose your tug.

Lie on your back, legs flat, head on the floor. Lightly stretch your penis up towards your chin, and do a kegel. You should feel the tug back. Keep doing this as you move your dick in 1 hour increments down towards your feet. Remember, 12:00 is towards your chin, 6:00 is towards your feet. Note the point on the clock where you can no longer feel the tug, or encounter "Loss Of Tug", or LOT.

Armed with this knowledge, you can now design your pe program to make sure the moves you do are maximizing your potential to gain, either from lig or tunica stretching, or a combination of both.

Once you are confident of your LOT, get thine ass back here :) We'll help you see the light :)

[GrowingUp]

Great thread. Really nails it for me, and I'm sure for others.
Bib, you are totally awesome. RB, thanks for all the insight into this and your explainations.

[crazydudedenmark]

But how do you strech/stress the tunica, does anyone have a program for this?

[RB]

By hanging or manual stretching at 9:00 or above, in all and every direction. I currently do this- From a seated position, with legs spread, pull parallel to my right leg, left leg, up and along my body to the right, up and along my body to the left, straight up towards my chin, left and right along my leg and straight out doing a modified A stretch.

[AnGeL N3v3R]

This question is for RB,

could you please explain (or direct me to a thread where it is explained) how to use the pipe when doing the A-Stretch?

I know DLD drew a diagram of it, but i didn't understand the rotation he was trying to describe.

Thanks...

[RB]

Angel, he drew that illustration based on my input.

Basicall, I use the hard plastic hose extension wand from a vaccuum cleaner. I pull my cock parallel to my leg, then slip one end of the pipe under my shaft then rest the end of the pipe on my thigh. I continue to pull straight out and slightly down, and the pipe causes a bend in my shaft where it wraps over the pipe. As I pull hard, I use my hand holding the pipe to lift it up, levering it off my thigh, to put additional stress and stretch to my shaft. I do this to the left, right, and pulling my penis straight out.

Hope that helps. Good Luck.

[mobydick]

First let me thank all forum members who so freely give of their
time and knowledge.
I'm 62 years young and started PE for erection problems -
and got hooked.
I started June 02 at 5"x4". at Aug 02 6"x51/4".
Stuck there eversince. Except have much better erections.
Question: I have strong LOT at 12:00 and drops way off
after 10:00. Does this mean I need to work ligs or tunica?

[Johan2]

Originally posted by mobydick
First let me thank all forum members who so freely give of their
time and knowledge.
I'm 62 years young and started PE for erection problems -
and got hooked.
I started June 02 at 5"x4". at Aug 02 6"x51/4".
Stuck there eversince. Except have much better erections.
Question: I have strong LOT at 12:00 and drops way off
after 10:00. Does this mean I need to work ligs or tunica?

With a LOT at 10:00, you have a lot of potential in your ligs. You should concentrate mostly on downward stretching - JAI or manual, which ever works better for you. If you're into hanging, then BTC is the way to go.

[Degarmo]

Ok RB I just did the LOT test just like you described it to be done. From what I can tell my lot is between 8:00 and 7:00. Does this mean I should do more tunica stretches? and if so . What are the stretches I can do and how do I do them? BTW are DLD Blasters a tunica stretch? or a lig stretch? should I be mostly pulling up towards my chin? I just thought of something. I guess your not maxed out on lig stretch untill you hit 6:00 lot right? So I should continue working my ligs untill they max out at 6:00 right? Or not? Help me out dude. :)

[RB]

Degarmo, yes, you have some lig potential left. Make sure you include downward or even between the cheeks stretching in your workout.


Here's what I do to hit the tunica- By hanging or manual stretching at 9:00 or above, in all and every direction. I currently do this- From a seated position, with legs spread, pull parallel to my right leg, left leg, up and along my body to the right, up and along my body to the left, straight up towards my chin, left and right along my leg and straight out doing a modified A stretch. It is very important to hit the tunica in a variety of angles and directions to make sure it is being worked completely and one part doesn't lag behing and hamper gains.

For me, if by blasters you mean the A stretch (a true blaster is actually the act of kegelling and reverse kegelling in succession while stretching) the blasters do very little to hit my ligs, but properly applied, they hit the top of my tunica nicely.

[shonagon53]

What's tunica stretching?

I have only been doing the stretching excercises I found in some PE manuals (just pulling your dick in flaccid state while you sit: forward, upward and sidewards; is this what you call "ligament stretching"?).

I'd like to know what "tunica" means.

Thanks a lot.

And the expertise on this board is really growing! You should become PE consultants!

[RB]

The tunica is the tough fibrous membrand that surrounds each of the corpus cavernosa, the two main blood storage chambers that swell up with blood during an erection. Each cc is surrounded by a tunica, the both are surrounded by one tunica, as I understand it.

If when you stretch you feel the stretch in your shaft, it is the tunica. If you feel the stretch at the base of your penis and where the ligs connect to the pubic bone, it is your ligs.

Basically, stretching at angles and directions above your LOT hits the tunica. Make sure you incorporate lot's of different angles and directions to ensure you are hitting the tunica on all sides.

[mcstrate]

any new updates? i just saw this post and am going to give it a whirl. ctually a pull.

[wols0003]

the same stretching force will be exerted on the tunica at any angle. The stretching force on the ligs will change at various angles. I think of it like a rope connected to a bunge cord (the rope being the ligs and the bunge being the tunica.) It seems that it would be possible to issolate tunica stretch, however, isolation does not mean that a greater force will be applied to the tunica. It simply means that the ligs will not be involved.

[4_8x6]

so would it be safe to say that A-stretches are effective tunica stretchers, while the V-stretch (described by 7up/MagnumXL) would be effective with the ligs?

[Johan2]

Originally posted by 4_8x6
so would it be safe to say that A-stretches are effective tunica stretchers, while the V-stretch (described by 7up/MagnumXL) would be effective with the ligs?

Yes. Both are fulcrum stretches - so they work both departments, but as you suspected the A's effect is mostly on tunica and V's at ligs.

[Tooolguy]

I am curious, is it necessary to lay down when testing your LOT or is standing up the same? I have no basis to question the method just simply curious.
Thanks

[RB]

toolguy, for me it worked much better when I was lying down and relaxed.

wols, I beg to differ. Any stretch that affects BOTH the ligs and tunica under a given force load has to be distributed between the two components.

If you apply the exact same load in such an angle that one of the components is avoided or diminished, the other component has to take more of the force.

[doublelongdaddy]

Originally posted by 4_8x6
so would it be safe to say that A-stretches are effective tunica stretchers, while the V-stretch (described by 7up/MagnumXL) would be effective with the ligs?

Not completely. The angle of stretch is very important to the area of stretch. I can use extremely high or extremely low A-Stretch angles to work either the tunica or the ligs. The same hold true for any stretch that has the ability to change angle.

[doublelongdaddy]

Originally posted by RB
Basically, stretching at angles and directions above your LOT hits the tunica. Make sure you incorporate lot's of different angles and directions to ensure you are hitting the tunica on all sides.

Good Point!

[RB]

By the way, I picked up 1/2" in BPFS in the last two months by concentrating solely on tunica stretching as indicated by my LOT...

[doublelongdaddy]

Originally posted by RB
By the way, I picked up 1/2" in BPFS in the last two months by concentrating solely on tunica stretching as indicated by my LOT...

Awesome! Congratulations RB. Does this mean your hitting bottom?:D

[RB]

Well, it hasn't fully transfered into erect length yet, but I'm getting damn close. I can hit bottom every time missionary now, but I wanna own that spot no matter the position :)

Not too far off, I think :)

[clandestine]

I have a really low LOT too, maybe 6:30 and this is before starting a PE routine.. i was looking to start just this week. That means I must adapt my routine to lengthen my tunica rather than my ligs, my question is this: what's the tunica and what's the lig ;P And how should I stretch the tunica?

[cUriOS]

Originally posted by RB
The tunica is the tough fibrous membrand that surrounds each of the corpus cavernosa, the two main blood storage chambers that swell up with blood during an erection. Each cc is surrounded by a tunica, the both are surrounded by one tunica, as I understand it.

If when you stretch you feel the stretch in your shaft, it is the tunica. If you feel the stretch at the base of your penis and where the ligs connect to the pubic bone, it is your ligs.

Basically, stretching at angles and directions above your LOT hits the tunica. Make sure you incorporate lot's of different angles and directions to ensure you are hitting the tunica on all sides.

Read that one again. That's the tunica. Read a few posts after that one too....that will answer your question about stretchin it. Stretch more angles and higher than your LOT and you'll proly hit your tunica.

[ALpHawannagetbig]

hey RB, you told me to post here whenever my gains are slowing down. well it has, and im interested to learn on what i should do next and what i should focus on..

btw, if you havent heard, im now 6.8 inch!.. started at 5 inch march 30th 2003 and i did get great gains from PEing!!!..

i have a LOT of 5:00-6:00.. when i LOT i could still see the base tug.. but the tug back on the penis is lost at 5-6:00.. what should i focus on? and how would i do it? thanx for your time =)

[RB]

ALp, congrats on the gains :)

With a low LOT, you need to focus on tunica stretching for additional length gain potential.

Here's what I do to hit the tunica- By hanging or manual stretching at 9:00 or above, in all and every direction. I currently do this- From a seated position, with legs spread, pull parallel to my right leg, left leg, up and along my body to the right, up and along my body to the left, straight up towards my chin, left and right along my leg and straight out doing a modified A stretch. It is very important to hit the tunica in a variety of angles and directions to make sure it is being worked completely and one part doesn't lag behing and hamper gains.

Good Luck :)

[RB]

Below is a cut and paste of a very good explanation of the nuts and bolts of the LOT theory put up by SS4Jelq elswhere. I thought it highly appropriate here, and am sure he won't mind us borrowing it :)

"Guys,

Let me elaborate on the theory a little, as there is some confusion. I think that some people are trying to knock something they dont understand.

When you kegel, the PC muscle pulls the tunica back into the body slightly. The ligs attach on the TOP of the shaft, right? So naturally, the higher the angle of stretch, the less stress they will take, because the underside of the penis will be taking more stress. Do we all agree so far?

So you kegel, and move the angle of stretch down slightly, kegel again. Because the PC pulls the *TUNICA* back into the body, you will experience a tugback ONLY if the tunica is taking the stress. Right? That just makes sense doesn't it? Still with me?

Now, as you lower the angle of stretch, there may be a point where there is no tugback. Remember, the ligs are on TOP of the shaft, the lower the angle, the more potential stress they will take. There will be a point where they take most of the stress of the stretch. The penis will not tugback because THE LIGS ARE TAKING THE STRESS. You can kegel till you bleed but you wont get a tugback because you are stretching the ligs and the tunica IN FRONT of the attachment point of the ligs (this of course, would not affect tugback).

Remember, with the LOT test you are looking for the angle of stretch where the ligs take the stress. If they do not take the stress right down to 6, they are already long, indidcating the tunica is the limiting factor.

I hope that clears things up a little."

[cushing68]

[
btw, if you havent heard, im now 6.8 inch!.. started at 5 inch march 30th 2003 and i did get great gains from PEing!!!..
i[/B]

Kick ass gains~!!! Dude! What is your routine??

[Shagster]

Wow, I learned alot from this, Bib amazes me to no end :) Thanks all of you for sharing all this info. This should help me out a ton as my LOT is around 9:00. Thanks again

[the_gain]

Hey lads,
Been reading up on all the info for quite a while now, and thought it was about time I signed. First and foremost, THANKYOU to all the veterans who are helping the new pe'ers such as myself!
I tried the LOT test, and it's somewhere around 5:00.. Does anyone think it's worthwhile still trying to work the ligs? If not, what sort of potential gains would I be likely to achieve on my tunica workouts? I only started really pe'ing last week, BPFL is at 5.5", I'm not looking for a monsterous gain, if I can get to 7" I will be over the bloody moon.. Hope someone still reads this thread and can give me an idea!

[Big Al]

I would still suggest doing traditional stretches too. For details on LOT, see http://peforum.net/forum/showthread.php?p=50266 .

[arunv]

I am interested in Penis Enlargement Hypnosis. Has anyone tried it? Can anyone tell me where I can download PENIS ENLARGEMENT HYPNOSIS CDS/MP3S for free?

Arunv

[Big Al]

You can create you own motivational clips by recording yourself making positive affirmations and playing them back in a loop on low volume. This method works best when you have time to relax and just let the message sink in, but it'll also work if you listen to it while you're doing some quiet activity like driving. This isn't a substitute for doing your exercises though; it should be used in conjunction with a good routine.