Poll: believer or non-believer?

[shonagon53]

After all the reading and all the socalled exercises, I decided to take this entire PE thing up during a visit to my doctor.

I was amazed at what he told me.

First thing: he said he has had men talking to him about it before. I must have been the 10th doing so.


LENGTH
So he explained, in very simple terms: PE does NOT work for length. And IF it works a little, what you see are actually DAMAGES to the penis; they have potentially disastrous effects (like erectile disfunctions).

GIRTH
He drew a picture for me. The cells in your penis just litteraly collapse after jelqing. They temporarily suck up more blood after that, but the cell structure doesn't change and long term effects are just nonsense. All you are doing is temporarily increasing the bloodflow in your penis. It's like a massage. Nothing more. Forget permanent gains. (He even said that if you massage the same piece of your arm every single day for 25 minutes, you will see it swell).

HOTWRAP
Very very bad for your health. It destroys your sperm, and if you do it every single day, it may cause infertility. No matter what amateurs think about sperm easily regenerating. It's a myth. Applying hotwraps daily is a virtual guarantee for infertility. The cells in our testes are the oldest and most fragile cells in a male body; treat them with care.



So, I quit. He said that only psychological acceptance of a no doubt very average member is the real victory. He said that the risks of PE far far outweigh the benefits, which are after all only temporary and very illusionary.

Length gains are out of the question if you don't have surgery.

I'm a non-believer now, after more than 12 months of hard work and minimal gains.

I'm a bit sad, but I don't buy it anymore.




A poll is probably useless, but here we go anyways.

the poll is only about LENGHT.

Are you a believer?

[RB]

I can't wait for luvdadus, an MD, to chime in on this subject.

Basically, your doc is full of shit.

But it is your choice...

[Bigger Daddy Shinryuu]

PE has worked for me. =) Especially if you look at BP-measurements... Now I started in April 2000 and got results fairly quickly. I recall I had 15.5 cm BP when I started... and in four months it was 18.5... My girth went from 12.7 cm to a 14 cm (mid-shaft). My NBP went from 14 to 16 cm.

PE has been off and on after those four months in 2000. But, I have at the moment 18.7 cm BP, and 15.5 cm NBP. And my girth has never gone below 13.5. (it varies from 13.5 to 14). The rulers and measure tapes don't lie. At least not for me. =)

[ebon00]

Originally posted by shonagon53
LENGTH
So he explained, in very simple terms: PE does NOT work for length. And IF it works a little, what you see are actually DAMAGES to the penis; they have potentially disastrous effects (like erectile disfunctions).

[...]

Length gains are out of the question if you don't have surgery.


Aha, so penis length gains ar impossible? I would like you to ask your physician what he actually knows about penile lengthening surggery. A vital part of penile lengthening surgery, after they've cut the suspensory ligaments, is stretching of the penis daily for up to 3 months. Some physicians recommend weight hanging while others prefer vacuum pumps for this procedure. So if you're having surgery to lengthen your penis they're also making you do fairly standard PE (i.e. stretching and hyperemiating). (One study on the use of vacuum pumps and their effect on penis size can be found at this URL https://www.sexccess.com/techread.htm. Go to part 11 a bit down the page. Overall, the information here is interesting to read.)

Originally posted by shonagon53
He said that only psychological acceptance of a no doubt very average member is the real victory. He said that the risks of PE far far outweigh the benefits, which are after all only temporary and very illusionary.

So obviously this physician has a small dick... And this was his psychological victory over you.

You know, I remember when every doctor on the planet recommended bedrest for back injuries. That rarely happens anymore since they all realised that muscular atrophy probably isn't the greatest thing for an already weak back.

I also remember a lot of physicians prescribing fenfluramine and the other "new wave" pharmaceutical diet drugs which were supposedly safer than the ECA stack. Those drugs are no longer on the market because they caused upper pulminary constriction in a very high % of users. Some of the people who had this prescribed can no longer walk up a flight of stairs without thinking they're taking their dying breath.

Bottom line, a lot of physicians are very adept at floating along midstream. They don't care to know certain things which is fine but then they go and make rash comments on things they actually know little about. And, like everyone else, they make mistakes and rely on theories that can be disproven any day.

As for temporary and illusory, I had my first bout of PE back in 1997. I gained roughly 1.5" in length. When I re-measured in the late spring to see what I would be starting with when embarking on this new phase of PE I found no change. That's 6 years and the gains are still there. That's temporary alright.

[VRMan]

First off, I am a believer, not because I have made any gains (I have had none so far), but because there are so many members here reporting success that I simply cannot believe they are all lying or dreaming.

Secondly, your doctor's opinion sounds alarming to me. Although I developed a solid distrust in the medical art over the years, I am still sure that a doctor who works with penises day in day out for decades must know more about them than even the most veteran PErs here.

My only hope that he is wrong, and there is some indicators that he is. Many members reported that their gains were permanent, even after years. However, the long term effect of any "therapy" (counting PE here) is measured in decades, and technically, the doc is true because we don't have any historical data spanninng a sufficient period.

From what I heard, bodybuilding used to be an art similar to PE -- for a long time, it was hardly ever researched into, and the first generations of body builders without the backing of any medical evidence. I am sure that back then, many doctors back then said that you cannot but ruin your joints and your spine doing wheight lifting. I am sure many of them have heard the phrase "I mother nature had wanted us to benchpress 160 lbs, we were designed much differently."

And it was true for many bodybuilders, they ruined their health going overboard with their exercises. Without doubt, this is possible for PE too, but let us hope that their is also the "right" amount of PE which is beneficial (like weight lifting), and that in some years, PE will be better researched and accepted by the scientific community.

Sports medicine has become a scientific branch of its own. Maybe we will see this happen with PE some day.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by VRMan
I am sure many of them have heard the phrase "I mother nature had wanted us to benchpress 160 lbs, we were designed much differently."

That was too funny... 160 lbs... You need to get to a gym. And you know what, mother nature did "design" us so that we could lift 160 lbs. (Blind Watchmaker alert by the way.) And easily at that.

[6wants7]

To me, like VRman, the fact that this forum exists is proof enough that it works.. Since this is none commercial, why would a bunch of guys lie about it? That's just absurd..
I do however believe that some are more lucky than others when it comes to being able to make good gains (and most of all fast gains)
But if that doctor knows what he's talking about, that's not exactly inspirational stuff. Especialy the hot wrap thing scared me..

[Stillwantmore22]

Hey 6wants7...it's easy! We're all ......those whove been here a while and keep coming back boasting of our fake gains......just a bunch of losers with no lives. We get off on this stuff! I know myself...ha...you really think I've gained 1.75" in length and an inch in girth? HA!! My proof pics are total bullshit too! I cut that ruler! HAA! HAA! The first pic...was legit. I just started this stuff at 7.5 bp. The next pic, I VERY carefully cut 1/4" off the front of the ruler. The cat's out of the bag man! We're all a bunch of fakes. Tell your doc to lick my nuts.....cuz, Stillwantmore said so (borrowing from Steve Austin...WWF wrestler/actor). Shon, I'm sorry youve had a negative experience with PE. I'm also sorry youre going on the words of a doctor who has no personal experience on the subject and, is just feeding you medschool B.S. that he's been taught to spew forth when someone asks about the subject. I know he's protecting his ass in case he were to tell you this stuff worked...go ahead... and , you injure yourself. If you quit....fine with me. Your loss, MY continued gains.

[Degarmo]

I'm a beleiver... And so is my wife! Lmao..

[Stillwantmore22]

By the way Shalong, you mis-spelled Lenght....i'ts Length.

[christof]

No need to bash on shonagon...

we trust doctors, don't we? There's nothing wrong with that.

PE is only for the hard-working, dedicated man. If you don't give it a ton of effort, you get nothing. Isn't this just the way we want it?

I've only gained about .75-1"..damage or not, I'll keep it. Shit, dicks are ugly anyway.

[shonagon53]

Just a quick reply.

I'm from a country with the best social security and health care system on the planet. My country ranks at the very TOP of prosperity and human development (check the Human Development Index it ranks very very high; higher than most other European countries and higher than the USA).

Why am I saying this? Well, in this country being a doc is a strictly non-commercial profession. Unlike in the USA or in so many other countries. (Our docs have no interest whatsoever in selling things, getting more appointments or trying to have you buy third party products.) They don't have the stress of the pharma-industry weighing on them. Because the medical profession in my country is totally socialized. A bit like in Cuba :-)

Some people in here advise me to read this or that; I don't do it any more; these sources are all American and only have a commercial purpose, not a medical one.


So I'm proud I took it to my "State Doc". And, although he hasn't done any penis surgery, he seems to know quite a bit about it. He says they cut the ligaments, and push a part of the piece of "inner penis" (which is inside the belly), out. That is: they deliberately damage the penis (cutting ligs). The exercises after the operation have nothing to do with pe, they're only a kinesitherapeutic massage, so to speak.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that you can gain length without cutting the ligaments of your penis. And I'm not interested in cutting my dear friend of my belly for a few cm more.

[6wants7]

Originally posted by Stillwantmore22
Hey 6wants7...it's easy! We're all ......those whove been here a while and keep coming back boasting of our fake gains......just a bunch of losers with no lives. We get off on this stuff! I know myself...ha...you really think I've gained 1.75" in length and an inch in girth? HA!! My proof pics are total bullshit too! I cut that ruler! HAA! HAA! The first pic...was legit. I just started this stuff at 7.5 bp. The next pic, I VERY carefully cut 1/4" off the front of the ruler. The cat's out of the bag man! We're all a bunch of fakes.

WHAT?! You lying, filthy bastards! Damn you all to hell!!

LOL


I don't doubt it works if you do it right. But how healthy is it really..


shonagon53, it almost sounds like you're talking about Norway.. We have that quasi-communist thing going too, which I don't mind at all.. Mind telling us where you're from? I doubt anyone will be able guess who you are, anyway :-)

[christof]

I'll guess he's in Switzerland.

Anyway, I'm not convinced that you can gain length without cutting the ligaments of your penis
Now, don't you think that's a bit harsh? By saying this, you're calling all of us who have increased the length of our penises without cutting the ligaments liars. That's likely to offend people on here...don't forget you are talking to real people who have feelings and can be insulted. You sound like a conspiracy theorist; everything's for a commercial purpose. All of this stuff I've been spewing has really been to set you up for the sale. Now, how often do you buy a new vacuum cleaner? :)

In a way, your statements about the impossibility of enlargement by stretching the ligs and about information having only a commercial purpose are arrogant. Do you really think that deceiving you is greatly important to those here? What makes you special enough to bother with? Take it or leave it...I'm willing to keep the pool of big dicks small.

You have to put your doctor's opinion in perspective. You do realize that's an opinion, don't you? This isn't taken from a rule book. Doctors are humans, just like you and me. I'm not sure it's the case that your doctor has disected a penis and pelvis, taken the ligaments out, and played with them extensively to see how far he could stretch them. To me, this is proof that doctors don't know everything. But that aside, this is a good opportunity for you to find fulfillment away from PE..to accept yourself for who you are and to not have any regrets. Look at poor DLD...he's close to 11" BP and still hasn't finished. Trust your doctor: walk away.

[shonagon53]

Flanders here!

(Belgium is ranking 4th on the HDI, but Flanders ranks 1.)

Very proud!

Rumor has it that we'll soon be ranking number 2. Probably already in next years HDI!

Now we only have the Norwegians to kick out! lol

[shonagon53]

Hey, I'm not a conspiraty theorist.

All I'm saying is that I have strong doubts.

And maybe we shouldn't forget that this forum itself is mainly intended for commercial purposes, even if it has genuine posters on it.

I hope I'm not offending the owner of this board now. I'm just suspicious after what my doc told me.

And he knows what he's talking about, he's a sexologist besides being a mere doc.

ok.

[Pan]

Your doctor doesn´t know what he is talking about.

He is only right about one thing, the sperm issue.

Soaking the balls in hot water actually works as a birth control technique if done the right way. Usually (according to a test I read about) things get back to normal after a couple of days or so.

I can assure you PE works. Or maybe I´m dreaming when my ruler measures 1.5" more in length and the tape measures almost one 1" more girth now than 5 years ago. I´m over 30 BTW.

And... ask the girls I´ve been with pre and post PE.. hehehehehe!
They know for sure this works. I didn´t tell them but their words, their faces, and their orgasms....

If I cut back on PE for months, I loose no more than 1/5".

Stop calling us liars and kick your Doc´s ass, or please leave the board!

/Pan

[Pan]

"And he knows what he's talking about, he's a sexologist besides being a mere doc."

NO, he does NOT know what he is talking about. YOU believe he does and HE believe he does and you are both dead wrong.

/Pan

[Pan]

Who are you???

In your other thread you say something like..

"thanks god we have PE!"

Seem a little bit confused IMO.

/Pan

[6wants7]

Originally posted by shonagon53
Flanders here!

(Belgium is ranking 4th on the HDI, but Flanders ranks 1.)

Very proud!

Rumor has it that we'll soon be ranking number 2. Probably already in next years HDI!

Now we only have the Norwegians to kick out! lol


Flanders, eh? Okelidokely! (Sorry, I just had to, I'm am Simpsons fan)

http://www.cphr.sk/english/undp2002en_15.pdf

Hm. Actually I didn't know we were on top of this ranking. I do remember that we were announced the best country to live in. Well, maybe it's the same ranking.. yeah, that sounds probable.

If Flandern is no. 1 it must be in the "province" ranking, right?

(ok, this discussion isn't very Pe-related, sorry)

[doublelongdaddy]

It still amazes me that the some of the most intelligent minds in the world still think it's flat.

[Stillwantmore22]

I'm also surprised so many people are so very fond of socialist medicine and, seem to think it's the best.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by shonagon53
Why am I saying this? Well, in this country being a doc is a strictly non-commercial profession. Unlike in the USA or in so many other countries. (Our docs have no interest whatsoever in selling things, getting more appointments or trying to have you buy third party products.) They don't have the stress of the pharma-industry weighing on them. Because the medical profession in my country is totally socialized. A bit like in Cuba

Some people in here advise me to read this or that; I don't do it any more; these sources are all American and only have a commercial purpose, not a medical one.

Really good reply. Ignorant as hell, but good. You see, the doctors in your precious homeland read the same studies every other doctor on the planet does. They appear in peer-reviewed journals and even though those are fairly corrupt, that's the way of the world. If it's not in a peer-reviewed journal it doesn't exist in the medical world. A LOT of the studies that physicians base their information on are written by teams. Many of them working across borders. So baring your blatant anti-American hide is not really the best argument. You're basically tossing aside anything American because it has economical interests. That's like saying all people who call themselves shonagon53 on message boards are completely moronic. It could be true, but in all likelyhood it's not.

And here's another funny thing. Most general physicians, which I assume you went to, don't try to sell you anything. No matter where in the world they are. They usually don't make a penny from any prescriptions they fill out. What they earn their money on is return business. Let that sink in for a while.

Don't get me wrong, in general I'm not a big fan of doctors because they have tradition built into their profession and that's not a very good starting point in a rapidly changing field. And, lo and behold, I'm not American either. Actually I live in a "semi-socialist" state myself.

[shonagon53]

Listen, one last time.

1. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I simply know that many American websites about health which have a forum or another kind of interactivity to it, are first of all commercial enterprises. Does this make them bad sources of information? No. But I wouldn't want to rely ONLY on this info ("peer info") when it comes to something I consider important, like my sexlife and the health of my dick. Djee, that's stating the obvious.

2. I'm not anti-American. I'm just saying that our medicare system works totally different. And to the previous poster--sorry, you have no idea of how our system works. I'm also convinced of the fact that in America the medical profession is ultra-commercialist. Does it make it bad medicine? Nope. But simple common sense--and experience--teaches me that when profit comes first, quality may suffer. Also for medicine. No matter how strict the rules are, even in the US.

3. About the HDI (they don't have penis stats as a factor yet, lol): it's quite a credible instrument for comparing "Human Development" in different countries, where "human development" is as defined by the HDI, nothing more, nothing less. (I know that's a tautology).

4. I must say it's with "grief" in my heart, that I say goodbye to PE. I wish you all the best. But I have decided, for me, myself and I, that the risks far outweigh the rewards (and yes, that's an economic thought, duh).

So good luck to you all, I'm glad if it works for you.

And thanks very much for all the "info" and the thoughts about PE. This is a great forum. But as far as PE actually goes: I consider it to be a funny hobby, nothing more. And that's ok.

But I quit.







PS: please don't kick me off this forum because I was critical. I hope you don't do that. I may eventually change my mind, or practise that hobby again one day....who knows.....

[Stillwantmore22]

Well have a nice journey. Pity things didnt work out for ya. BY!

[ebon00]

Originally posted by shonagon53
But I wouldn't want to rely ONLY on this info ("peer info") when it comes to something I consider important, like my sexlife and the health of my dick.

Too bad because you obviously didn't understand what I was talking about. Those peer-reviewed periodicals are where your physician gets his knowledge (assuming he doesn't prefer to just rely on what he picked up in med school but that's rare). Saying you don't want your info from them is like saying you don't want the info your physician gives you. And the fact that you chose to believe him is what started this thread.

Originally posted by shonagon53
And to the previous poster--sorry, you have no idea of how our system works.

Maybe, but what makes you so certain about your own views on the "ultra-commercialist" nature of American physicians?

Will be interesting to see what kind pf prescence (if any) you'll be making for yourself on this board in the future.

[Stillwantmore22]

It's our "ultra commercialist" system that makes our country so much better than yours! HA HA! Kiss my American ASS! Also, you dont have too much "grief" in your heart about leaving PE...otherwise you would have taken what your physician said as advice...not as prophecy to live by. Ever heard of "take it with a grain of salt"? Guess not. Anyway. See ya later.

[twatteaser]

Originally posted by doublelongdaddy
It still amazes me that the some of the most intelligent minds in the world still think it's flat.

You mean I won't get hammered at Hooters walk home and fall off the edge of the earth and die? I love the Friday Black outfits they wear then too. Holy Shit, even a failed intellectual learns something every day. ;)

[Bigger Daddy Shinryuu]

Something totally unrelated to the topic.. I saw that Sweden ranks number 2 on this list. So bloody amusing! :-D these indexes generally don't show what reality is really like... Take for example the health care system. I once called to get a doctor's appointment regarding depression... I got an appointment three weeks later! LOL! The whole deal made me snap out of it, and I still laugh about it everyday. I mean, if a person was waaaaay depressed, he/she'd probably had already killed himself within those three weeks.

[shonagon53]

Who's the dude about the peer reviewed articles?

Do you think I'm retarded?

Damn, everyone with a BA or an MA knows what peer reviews are.

I wasn't talking about that, einstein.

I was talking about the fact that this is a board of info from "peers", fellow PEers.

OK, NEXT.

I only said that commercialized medicine has big chances of being bad medicine. That's why it is illegal in many western countries, like mine. I think this is important, certainly when it comes to sexuology.


NEXT,

The guy with the depression when he was in Sweden. Take my word on it, when a European doc gets an American who claims to be depri, be sure he will see things in perspective; there are certain criteria which you have to fullfil in order to be clinically diagnosed depressive. European docs know that Americans tend to exaggerate their selfdiagosis (after all, they're the global per capita champions of swallowing useless drugs). If you were really so depressed you should have called 911, not a doc. (That doc will have listened to you carefully and made a clear diagnosis that you were not at all depressed, only in need of your weekly dose of medtalk.)

See? When an ordinary American in America calls a doc and says he's depri, that doc will immediately make an appointment ($$$), a European doc will make a medical decision and tell you that people who say "I'm really really depressed now" are clearly NOT.

OK.

Let's drop this.

I'm tired of it.


Good luck with PE.

[MDC]

Just one question. Where did your doctor study PE? The only information he seems to have is what he read that just happened to be written by doctors promoting penis lengthening surgery. Doctors doing these procedures have a vested interest in promoting their method only.

And a few comments.

Medicine run by government will always be, at best, mediocre without competition. It's pathetic that your little country made private doctors illegal.

You have much to learn about the United States and free markets.

It's unfortunate that you haven't gained as much as you'd like with PE. But that doesn't make everyone else a liar.

[shonagon53]

Nothing in any of my posts would suggest I think you are liars.

And that's my entire point: some of you say, my doc this my doc that. I trust him, he's an expert. I mean these guys study 9 to 11 years before they can open a practise, so I bet they've learned the basics about penises and what's possible with them. Moreover if such a man (with 11 years of study and 10 years of practise as a sexuologist) gets several patients with the same question, he will research the matter further and give me his best knowledge and advise.

He's totally against surgery for people with a normal average penis, so DLD.....


Last thing, I think the USA can learn quite a lot about corrections of ultraliberal free market ideology from my little irrelevant country. My country has virtually no poverty (USA biggest poverty of the Western world, per capita), no violence (USA n° 1), almost no societal problems (drug abuse, teen preggos, etc...), the best healthcare on the planet, the best education (check the HDI; USA's quite a disaster when it comes to general education) and a very high per capita income (a bit higher if you calculate what we'd keep if we had the low tax schemes of the USA--HDI recalculation: my country wins).

So don't always state the obvious please.


The Free Market isn't sacrosanct, you know. Just an example: my country will never allow Americans to patent genetic info (they might wanna buy the gen that codes for penis length; they already patented certain breast cancer sequences). The free market is a machine that thrives on inequality and creates poor people and social misery.

The myth that there is no alternative is being revised every single day by about all governments on the planet now. It's clearly a new global trend, away from the neoliberal madness (which kills many people all over the world). Except the US government doesn't dare to be courageous on this one. People of my generation are post-capitalist. I don't know how old you are, I'm in my twenties.



ok.

[BMU]

Originally posted by shonagon53
And he knows what he's talking about, he's a sexologist besides being a mere doc.

Well, I used to be computer specialist some years ago. I thought I know EVERYTHING, but not only one time I learned that I was wrong in many cases.

This still happens from time to time in my life.

Has this ever happened to you Shonagon? You are sure you know something right and later you learn that you were wrong?

Don't you think that EVERY specialist can also be wrong with some of his opinions? Don't you think that your doc can be wrong with some of his opinions? Ever heard of docs that made mistakes too???

BMU

[MDC]

shonagon,
Your doctor may have "informed" opinions, but knows nothing of NPE. Even you should realize this much.

I'll leave it at that.

You're still welcome to come to this country any time if your wonderful system ever lets you down. You wouldn't be the first.

[RB]

Originally posted by shonagon53
...I mean these guys study 9 to 11 years before they can open a practise, so I bet they've learned the basics about penises and what's possible with them. Moreover if such a man (with 11 years of study and 10 years of practise as a sexuologist) gets several patients with the same question, he will research the matter further and give me his best knowledge and advise.



That is one HUGE leap of faith...

[BigJ]

Shonagon,

Why not ignore what anyone else says is possible and try stretching or hanging for a few weeks? If you gain - cool we are actually telling the truth! If not - then you can go and feel all superior. It would seem pretty pathetic for us all to have a few forums that we regularly spend a lot of time in just deluding ourselves and lying to newbies about whether pe is possible now wouldn't it?

Judge for yourself...

[Pan]

When I was in my early 20´s I also was sooo full of myself, saw everyting in black and white, needed someone to tell me how things where so I didn´t loose my contact with ground/earth.....


..and then I grew up and became an adult, learning things for myself and realised that doctors and politicians were more full of shit than my trash can.

Grow up and come back when things have cleared up young fellow :-) One can easy tell from your posts that you are young and have muuuch to learn. Meanwhile, try to be a littel humble, it goes a long way in getting along with people and makes for faster learning in life in general.

Oh, also before posting more crap, decide if PE is bull or if you still feel like "thanks god we have PE" as you wrote in your other thread. You don´t seem to know which fot to stand on.
Guess you felt foolish and didn´t answer this question from me earlier in this thread.

BY!

/Pan

[Pan]

Shonagons words in another thread;

"Exactely my same problem.
I gained a lot of girth, but no length."

*Pan shakes his head, laughing*

/Pan

[shonagon53]

That's correct, I gained quite some girth. But that's it. (I'm not complaining about that).

I don't need to be patronized, I have 12 months of PE practise on my curriculum.





(And docs DO know about the anatomy of the penis and the general physiological possibilities of the tissue of the penis).



Anyway, I've cooled down a bit now :-)

But I must say it made me furious to hear the thing about the hot wrap. (And again, he knows about causes of infertility). I'm sorry if I took the easy way of venting my anger on this forum.

Accept my apology.

Thx.

[Pan]

Peace and have a good Friday night :)

I will go out to Stockholm city 2night to see if there are any foxy ladies that want to follow me home and play with my just exercised schlong ;-)

Short summation;
Manually enlarging the penis works.
There may be an upper limit much to soon for many.
All "training" and heavy stress on the body involves a certain risk.
Most doctors have a very good understanding on how the dick works.
Most doctors have yet to learn that PE works and works very well.


/Pan

[dino775]

Shonagon

You are 100% correct this shit don't work and you should give up



Dino

[shonagon53]

I already did. From the moment my doc started accurately naming all the dangers involved in it, and the damages done for no real results.

Shona

[shonagon53]

I'll also give up this discussion, ;-)

You're either a believer, a doubter or a non-believer anyways...

[kielbasa]

That's correct, I gained quite some girth. But that's it. (I'm not complaining about that).


You yourself have claimed to gained in girth. How can you make such a claim not believe that PE works? I've also been PE'ing since March 2002 and have gained Zero in girth. Do I believe? Hell yes! Whether it looks longer or not, the ruler doesnt lie. My girlfriend's reactions (even to length only with no extra girth) don't lie either!

[tate]

anything that is done incorrectly and can potentially cause you severe emotional and physical damage would not be recommended by any physician. Thats the bottom line, a Doctor cannot advise you to do any techniques to enlarge your penis have they havent been proven or disproven. IMO its the same thing as religious debates, evolution has not been proven, but it sure as hell has not been disproven either. So until there is a definitive scientific experiment. All doctors will say the same thing when on or off the clock. To COVER their own ass...

[pitbull]

Thank you, Shonagon53. You have inspired me to forge on!

I've been lurking this forum for several months and have made a few half-hearted starts. But now, spurred on by my distaste for your socialist point of view, I have renewed my enthusiasm and commited myself to an intense new PE program!

Did you really think you would convince any Americans that your doctor is right simply because he is an agent of the "state"? I feel bad for you, Shonagon. We are all entitled to our own beliefs and choices. But a year from now, while you're still allowing your government to decide what is and isn't possible for you, I'll be strolling the beach showing off my big, fat, capitalist cock!

GIVE ME PE OR GIVE ME DEATH!!!!!

[shonagon53]

<<Did you really think you would convince any Americans that your doctor is right simply because he is an agent of the "state"?>>

I prefer doctors who serve the public good, instead of their own wallet. You probably have already bought a "doc approved!!!" (100%!! scientific proof, increase your dick 10 inches now, really scientifically proven!!! American fact! duh!!!) dick expansion machine (really this is no ad! this is 100% approved by a man in a white jacket who looks like a doc or a dog on a pic on a website!!! 100%%%%%).


<<We are all entitled to our own beliefs and choices. >>

No you're not. If you happen to be one of those 78 million Americans (roughly 1/3d of the entire population) who can't afford basic healthcare, you are without choices. You are confronted with a fact, in such a case. In Europe, you have the DUTY to contribute to the wellbeing of every citizen. No choice. Duty. Duty so people who have had bad luck through some kind of accident can live and make choices once again.


<<But a year from now, while you're still allowing your government to decide what is and isn't possible for you>>

Very questionable statement... At least I live in a democracy. You can't say that. You had no possibility of countering your government when it lied to you about its colonial efforts in Iraq. That's because your entire society is indoctrinated and hijacked by corporate criminals (from the media to politics).
You have nothing to say, nothing to choose, only to obey, little slave (lol).
On the contrary, I live in a free society, where the excluded are included. We see solidarity and fraternity as a crucial component for freedom.


<<ll be strolling the beach showing off my big, fat, capitalist cock!>>

Since you're 100% American, you have a 39,8% chance of being obese and thus having a small ugly cock (or something that once resembled it so many years ago).

Capitalist? I'm a capitalist too.

And we even have beaches.

Duh.

[Iceman]

Shonagon, get a grip. If you feel this thread has been lowered don´t follow that trend.

Everyone else, ignore this thread. It was a useful thread up to the point where politics became the issue.

Please don´t fuel pointless debates, this forum needs good threads!

[k1ng29]

if Flanders had 78 million extra people living there, i am sure your little carebears, life is peachy, lets be friends healthcare system wouldn't be working quite so well

[dem]

It is a fact that prolonged and adequate traction of soft or semi soft tissue causes tissue growth. Period. You can stretch your bones, cartilage, tendons, muscles, and yes, - even your penis!!

I truly believe the only "safe" method is to apply a tractive force along the penis for MOST OF YOUR WAKING LIFE for the period of six months or more if you want to make more penis.

It seems logical that in order for traction to work you will have to use the same method that doctors use - consistent long-term traction.

If you want it badly enough, and don't mind wearing around some kind of device for the next year or so - I say GO GET YOURSELF A BIGGER PENIS. It's bound to work because it is proven to work 100% of the time on the same kinds of tissue elsewhere on the body.

If a doctor says that there is no method for PE that works or does so by damage alone, HE'S LYING OR HE'S can't put 2 and 2 together. Doctors prove every day that traction works for soft and semi-soft tissue elongation.

I'm sure that the accepted protocol is SURGERY, and that is all they can say to you, by an obligation to the AMA, and related contolling bodies.

But for a doctor to say that surgery is the only option for penile augmentation is like a car salesman saying that without a car, getting to work is impossibile. They know about the bus, they just don't talk about it. It takes longer and then you may not buy the car from them. And ofcourse, who the hell wants to take the bus?? Personally, I don't mind. It's generally safer it seems and too many people have had VERY bad experiences with crashed cars. ;-)

Dem.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by shonagon53
<<We are all entitled to our own beliefs and choices. >>

No you're not.

That was a great way of revealing basic psychology. Let's see, can anyone count how many times shonagon53 has claimed he's out of PE and ready to leave this discussion?

[pitbull]

I didn't mean to make you angry, Shonagon. I intended my political rantings to be at least a little bit humoruos, but it sounds like I really struck a nerve with you. It's a good thing us Yanks are used to being hated by the rest of the world, or some of those remarks would have really hurt:-) Isn't it fascinating, though, that people from different parts of the world can have such varying opinions on the way things ought to be? And feel so strongly about them? Iceman is right, however, this is not a place for political debate.

Maybe there is a way we could help you? Perhaps by studying this forum you could figure out why you didn't see the gains you were hoping for? I'm sure you could get some advice from some of the old-time PE practitioners. Maybe you could find some motivation from their success? I'll keep you posted on my progress, and maybe I can inspire you like you did me?

Tell me more about your country some time. Even though we'll never convince each other that our way of thinking is the right way, I'd still like to learn a little about how other people live.

Best wishes,
PitBull

[Big Al]

(SIGH)

I concur with Dem. The ligaments of the penis that phalloplasticians sever in penis lengthening surgery are anatomically the same as the ligaments attaching your biceps, quads, etc. to their bony insertions. If you were not able to stretch these ligaments beyond their resting point, you wouldn't be able to increase flexibility. Shonagon's doc has a little bit to learn about kinesiology. He obviously gave him the "no, it doesn't work" that most MDs give people when they ask questions that don't have answers found in the medical tomes.

BTW Shonagon, this forum is commercially sponsored, but there's no hidden agenda here. If there were, you could be sure that your anti-democratic posts would have been the first to have been deleted.

[pisspipe]

shonagon53,
I'm a bit sad that you're giving up, that's too bad.
Oh well, at least it doesn't cause me to lose my gains - which add up to about 64% more penis meat.
Were we really only supposed to bench 160 lbs? Shit, I wish somebody would've told me before I was repping 400 lbs. Oh boy!
I would've said to your doc that length is actually the easiest type of gain; I think girth is harder for most people. That's funny, the Ubangi savages can stretch their lips to ridiculous sizes by inserting larger & larger wooden discs in the incision, the Paduang women can enlarge their necks to ridiculous lengths by inserting coils over time, and certain African tribesmen have lengthened their penii to such extremes by stone-hanging that they tie their flaccid members into knots.....but we can't add an inch or 2 to our peepees????
Damn, I must've measured wrong. :(

[pisspipe]

Wow, I didn't see the socio-political rants of our Belgian buddy before I posted. How did a PE conversation turn into such a flailing, anti-American bashfest? LOL
Too bad the U.S. isn't more like Belgium.
When there were 2 superpowers in the world, Europe kinda clung to us, because the other superpower was directly threatening them. Now that we're the Big Dog - the only Big Dog - the rest of the world is scared of us, envious of us, and plain hates us. I guess the only thing worse than being an old irrelevant European country like Germany or France, is being an old irrelevant tiny European country like Belgium.
Oh well, go tuck your tiny Flemish peepee between your legs and join the ranks of "accepting, little-dicked fellows" like your state-controlled doctor.

[luvdadus]

I'm and MD.
I am a professor of Internal medicine and Geriatrics.
I teach at a state run Medical school.
I am selling nothing.
I gianed 2" in erect length with jelq and stretch.
Gained 5/8" in erect girth.
From the polls I've seen 85% of men who attempt PE gain substatially.
Look for an article in GQ magazine by Peter Rubins. He interviewed me and several others.
You can persist in your doubts. The only question I have is - Why the fuck are you here if you absolutely will not accept what you have been told by the posters here?
I have not read every word in this thread, just skimmed through it I may have add'l comments after I have done so.

[shonagon53]

"That's funny, the Ubangi savages can stretch their lips to ridiculous sizes by inserting larger & larger wooden discs in the incision"


Actually, the Ubangi (not sure it's the correct ethnic group, but anyway, the "lip-people") are only able to strecht their lips because they start from year zero, start very small, and wear the device continuously (even in their sleep).



"The Paduang women can enlarge their necks to ridiculous lengths by inserting coils over time"

That's a very bad example (and one I've seen being abused on PE websites for the easy to dupe). The "Padaung" don't lengthen their necks (no extra joints, or no elongated necks), what they do is they press down the collar bone of their chest. The visual effect helps to attract tourists though. If you translate "pushing down collar bone" to our lower anatomy, you can see that this obviously doesn't make sense.


"Certain African tribesmen have lengthened their penii to such extremes by stone-hanging that they tie their flaccid members into knots"

Yes, yes, we've all seen those few Leni Riefenstahl pics, but they were normal Sudanese who have genetically exceptional dicks. They'r still being born like that today. Nothing to do with stone-hanging.


OK.


I heard the Kali-Highland Papua Mana'ak (Ethnologe CL.016a) use the bark of a certain tree to temporarily increase the size of their balls. Medical anthropologists checked it out. But it's a deadly practise, and the Kali-Highland Papua Mana'ak (Ethnologe CL.016a) only use it on ritual occasions.






So, either you need to wear a tool constantly (which I won't and which none of us in here do), or you must have the (Sudanese or other African) genes, or otherwise you won't gain a thing.






To my political friend in here: as you can see, my reply to you was intended as irony as well. We all like Americans, you should know that. Even the ones who have never been out of their country.




To the 78 million guy: Most international statistics (like the HDI) are based on a per capita index. That's normal and standard.
Or would you say that American PEers have less chance of gaining PElength than a Dane because they have a bigger population than say Denmark?

[shonagon53]

""The only question I have is - Why the fuck are you here if you absolutely will not accept what you have been told by the posters here?"""


As an MD you should know that this is called "separation angst": leaving an imaginary habit because someone gave you a reality check.


I was just saying goodbye to PE, something with which I have had a lot of fun, with no gains. And I must admit, it's not easy. ("What if....?")

[pitbull]

Hey, Shonagon, glad to hear I didn't hurt your feelings too much. I thought I had really pissed you off! Seriously, though, I thought most of the world disliked us. Of course, that's OK, since we've all got a protective layer of fat thanks to our lack of free healthcare. (That was a joke!)

I started my new program on July 4th and haven't skipped a workout yet! It's way too soon to do any measuring, but if I do start to see any gains I'll let you know.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by shonagon53
""The Paduang women can enlarge their necks to ridiculous lengths by inserting coils over time"

That's a very bad example (and one I've seen being abused on PE websites for the easy to dupe). The "Padaung" don't lengthen their necks (no extra joints, or no elongated necks), what they do is they press down the collar bone of their chest. The visual effect helps to attract tourists though. If you translate "pushing down collar bone" to our lower anatomy, you can see that this obviously doesn't make sense.

Actually you're confusing things a little here. Yes, the "elongation" of the neck talked about here is through the pushing down of the collarbone and a subsequent deformation of the rib cage. Now, I would consider bone much less elastic and with almost no plasticity (unless someone is a genetic freak and no such genetic variations have been shown to be present in these tribes) so the deformation of bone is actually much harder than the deformation of soft tissue. (There is a case to be made for the fact that bone, due to its limited plasticity, would retain the effects of the deformity better, since the increased plasticity of soft tissue measn that it has en easier "route" to return.)

Don't make the mistake of seeing "pushing" and thinking that it can't possibly translate to "pulling". It's not a case of different categories, it's all about deformation.

I know you've totally dismissed any scientific talk in this thread before (when I mentioned peer-reviewed journals) but your really should check out PubMed sometime and look at the fact that the articles relating to penile surgery ALWAYS mention traction devices or weight hanging as part of the process. Why? Because if you only sever the supensory ligaments there's a chance for an actual decrease in penis length (the penis retreats into the body as it were). There have even been cases made for topical androgens as ameans to increase penis size.

[shonagon53]

I have never dismissed scientific facts, on the contrary, I rely on them.


But about the necks, you may be right, but I think not. In fact, bone is very flexible ( you may think that's strange at first sight, but in medical terms it's called the "green twig stage" of bone formation. I once had a "green twig fracture" of my arm: it didn't break, it was bent. Very strange and very painful. As you know, the ribs are the most flexible bones in a human body (they flex when we breathe), that's why they can be bent downwards so easily. And these Padaung women actually start at a very early age, before the bones are well formed. )

I think that's exactely why any comparison with the soft tissue of a penis is out.

The use of weights or stretching after a PE operation is only asked for because if you don't do that, the "scar" will schrink the tissue (just like any scar has a shrinking and hardening effect on tissue). The stretching is intended to keep the tissue supple. Nothing more. Certainly not to increase it.
In other words, it's a means to PREVENT shrinkage. Not to stimulate growth.

So we must be careful to extrapolate techniques from one field to another.

Because that's what makes the myth of PE so powerful: the pseudo-science behind it. And psychologically speaking, all men want a big dick and would give a lot for it...so once you catch them on that subject, they forget all critical thinking.


Anyway, again, the main reason why I'm stopping is to prevent me becoming infertile...the hot wrap thing. It's very serious. And nobody can counter that simple fact. I've tried PE excercises without hot wrapping, but that certainly doesn't work (in my case, that is).

So I chose fertility over one centimeter of gains.

[doublelongdaddy]

Originally posted by Big Al
(SIGH)

Ditttttttooooo

[Big Al]

"Anyway, again, the main reason why I'm stopping is to prevent me becoming infertile...the hot wrap thing. It's very serious. And nobody can counter that simple fact. I've tried PE excercises without hot wrapping, but that certainly doesn't work (in my case, that is)."

You would only risk lowering your sperm count if you wrapped your testes. I would personally only wrap my penis when warming up; and my favorite method of warming up was a soak in a hot tub anyway :)

[luvdadus]

I suppose it is possible that you are one of the 15% or less of men who despite what simply don't get gains. If that is so I guess your decision to quit is quite understandable and reasonable. I think that you should consider how many people here would have to be lying and/or exagerrating just to perpetuate a hoax. I'm sorry you didn't get results, but most get good results. You seem to have a fixation that if you don't get results then it is impossible that no one else did either. Good luck in whatever you do.

[Pan]

Funny thing is the guy claimed a "not so small" girth gain, still he say this does not work...!?!?

*scratches the forehead*

/Pan

[Thorne]

Non-believer here.

I believe surgery or having a constant tension stretch throughout the day (extenders, stretchers, hangers, etc) are the best ways to go for real gains.

I mean you don't see the women in the Padaung tribes tugging on their necks or their lips to make them grow, do you?
No, they use stretching devices.

Like I've said before, jelqing is just glorified masturbation and the fact that it causes blood vessels to bust, red spots to form, blood to come from the urethra and so on should be proof enough that it does more damage than good.

But believe what you want, it doesn't matter who believes what.
All I'm saying is that the undeniable proof is in the stretching.
If jelqing creates the gains that so many claim, then this poll shouldn't have even been posted in the first place.

[luvdadus]

It should have not been posted in the first place. My fastest gains occurred early on when I was doing only jelqing. RB has a similar story. Is it so difficult to accept that if something doesn't work for you that it might work for someone else? Are you saying that every one here who has experienced gains from jelqing is either lying or delusional?

[MDC]

I don't believe either. It's just coincidence that someone in his 30's penis starts growing when he's doing PE stuff. It's amazing that the growth seems to know when I'm actively doing PE.

[surfnforlife]

I pe'ed for 7 months, only for girth, definetely gained some sort of swelling or temporary gains in girth during those six months, but have taken close to 2 months off, and guess what?? LOST all that fancy swelling- the base of my penis was substantially large from all the jelqing and squeezes, but that has gone back to normal too, PE only works if you do it forever, every day- otherwise its complete BS- (im only talking about girth here). Didnt gain a millimeter in flaccid girth either- i did all sorts of squeezes, pan, horse.. ect ect.

[surfnforlife]

there must be some sort of psychology behind this board too.. when i was actively posting here and traning every day, i remember boasting about gains ect.... i think that reading everyone's gain stories and focusing on your penis every day warps your perception of what is really going on. If you take time off and dont focus on your penis at all, i guarantee youll come back dissapointed.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by surfnforlife
If you take time off and dont focus on your penis at all, i guarantee youll come back dissapointed.

That'll be the day... Funny thing happened to me back in 1997. I PE:ed. Gained OK (from 6.2" to 7.4"). Measured again when I decided to give it another go this spring. Measured in at 7.3". So that's, at most, a 0.1" loss in 6 years. Consider that most men lose height faster than that after a point in their life...

So, OK. There is no scientific proof of PE. (Except those pesky little studies done on hyperemiation but those weren't long-term so...) But then again, there is no scientific proof that the warmups used in PE cause infertility. That's implied by other theories but has never been tested.

This discussion kind of reminds me of "The life of Brian". Who cares to follow the shoe? (I guess that's why there are two, mutually exclusive, stories of the creation in the Bible.) We believe different things. Wars have been started over less. Argumentation won't change anything. How come this thread hasn't been locked by an administrator long ago?

[Bigger Daddy Shinryuu]

Life of Brian.. I love that movie! :-D

[luvdadus]

I think that all you non believers should just quit.

[dem]

"Actually, the Ubangi (not sure it's the correct ethnic group, but anyway, the "lip-people") are only able to strecht their lips because they start from year zero, start very small, and wear the device continuously (even in their sleep)."

--shonagon53
------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, and they achieve in excess of %1000 increase in tissue mass in the area being discussed - by adulthood. . . I just want a measely 30% or, at most 40% or so. around 1/25th of what they achieved, at most. 175,200 hrs of traction by age 20 for them. 10,000 hours traction for me by 2004. = 1/17.5 of the total time.

seems reasonable.

Chances are quite high that this will work with a traction of appox 1200g X 10hr/day if you believe the protocol for tissue elongation in medical journals from all over Europe and the US.

DEM.

[Big Al]

Originally posted by ebon00

...How come this thread hasn't been locked by an administrator long ago?

It's interesting to read about different points of view that people have...even if there's a lot of ignorance behind them.

[Thorne]

mind

[Expanding]

Originally posted by shonagon53
After all the reading and all the socalled exercises, I decided to take this entire PE thing up during a visit to my doctor.

I was amazed at what he told me.

First thing: he said he has had men talking to him about it before. I must have been the 10th doing so.


LENGTH
So he explained, in very simple terms: PE does NOT work for length. And IF it works a little, what you see are actually DAMAGES to the penis; they have potentially disastrous effects (like erectile disfunctions).

GIRTH
He drew a picture for me. The cells in your penis just litteraly collapse after jelqing. They temporarily suck up more blood after that, but the cell structure doesn't change and long term effects are just nonsense. All you are doing is temporarily increasing the bloodflow in your penis. It's like a massage. Nothing more. Forget permanent gains. (He even said that if you massage the same piece of your arm every single day for 25 minutes, you will see it swell).

HOTWRAP
Very very bad for your health. It destroys your sperm, and if you do it every single day, it may cause infertility. No matter what amateurs think about sperm easily regenerating. It's a myth. Applying hotwraps daily is a virtual guarantee for infertility. The cells in our testes are the oldest and most fragile cells in a male body; treat them with care.

First off, I think you have completely misrepresented what your physician said... either that or he is incompetant.

According to your post, your doctor said "PE does not work... but... IF it DOES WORK"... lol. So... "it doesn't work... but IF IT DOES WORK... bad things happen".

Additionally, this misinformed physician seems unaware that semen/sperm has little to do with the penis. The penis is the conduit of seminal transmission, but has nothing to do with semen production.

As a health care professional. I think you need a new doc.

[ghosttt]

this is a story i have to tell you about myself and doctors and there practices.
first and foremost i have gained 1 inch of length and a 1/2 in in girth in 6 months! and i stoped now for a month and its still all there. secondly. sometimes i would have some erection problems and once in a blue would resort to a viagra. since i started this program my erections have been so strong that it hurts my girl. i at at attention at any given moment. lastly and most importantly heres my story.
i actually stumbled across this message board not by looking for penis enlargement. i have 7 inches with 6 inches of girth, im a decent size. thought i dont think there is a guy on the planet that can't say they would like another inch or 2. so anyhow. what i was looking for had the same moniker as penis enlargement. you see i was born with a condition call PE pectus excavatum. if anyone who has ever seen someone on the beach and there sternum is sunken in this is what it is. Pectus excavatum is a bone disorder where while your are growing into puberty your cartilage around your sternum doens't harded as fast as your bones grow causing your sternum to be depressed. ok. as you can see how this may have effected me growing up i was different the the other guys in the locker room i was very embarrased of it and hated to goto beaches. my case wasn't that bad where it was life threatening but in some people its so bad that it compresses your lungs. anyhow i had a girlfriend for 3 years and was always getting laid on the regular so it never really got to me (that much it was always in the back of my mind if a girl was to touch me) sounds crazy but it was real as fuck. well we broke up and i started with the single life and more and more this thing drove me crazy. friends would say its not that bad. thats like saying you look like a freak in less words. so i sought out a doctor here in the states actually 2 of them. one told me to see a specialist. so i did the rude fuck made me feel so stupid totally downplaying it and making it as if i was wasting his time with my questions. i asked him if i can have surgery because usually surgery can be done to fix this disorder. he told me no surgery and to learn to live with it, this is the same man who was balding and had a major comb over, so im sure he still hasn't learn to live with his balding and hes telling me to live with it they wont do surgery unless its life threating. this WAS life threating , this was threating to the way i live my life!! so i set out to search high and low, another doctor said the only way to fix this was surgery. now i am athletic and work out and box for years. i said to myself these people are fuckin idiots all this schooling i know for a fact the body can be manipulated without surgery, the body is an amazing thing. people in africa can extend there necks with rings! so i searched all over the net and found this doctor in argentina who was performing a not intrusive technique on young boys and girls that had to do with wearing a brace and doing excersices, while i was looking at his board there was a doctor in japan who had dealings with this CAUSE he had it! we exchangged emails for about 6 months he told me how to make a makeshift brace and do this excersices he also showed me since i had this condition how out of posture my body was because your sternum is a posture mechanism. anyhow suffice to say, i did this for 2 years at first i was skeptical but somethign told me to hang in there and doctors said you dont know what your doing you can hurt yourself. well i have to say is this you live 1 time and if you dont swing that fucking bat how the hell are you ever gonna hit a homerun? ya you could strike out but you could also hit a sosa over the left field wall. i did it for 2 years and stoped on and off now its 5 years later. my chest is flat as can be and my posture is great, i play sports better have better breath intake and am more confident than ever. so i say to the doctors who think because they went to extensive school and make crazy money for doing a half assed job 80 percent of the time, stop sticking your dick in the autoclav and wake up your are not god! don't act like your are all knowing your aren't. Doctors also used to drill holes in peoples heads to releave them of headaches. yup thats a smart one. doctors are people just like you and me and alot of these doctors bring there personal notions to work and infect you with them. almost as bad as the american politicians and this asshole president but thats another story for another time.

do what you do.
it works.
almost every porn star i see these days has signs of pe.
believe what you will.

[normalguy85]

I know this thread is old...and maybe no one will look at it...but i just had to comment on the idea presented that the hot wraps will make you infertile.

I'm not too sure what that doctor is thinking, thats like saying taking a hot shower or bath daily or more will make you infertile. If thats the case, our species is doomed. ;)

[charlie8]

I've lived in Europe for 11 years, in Holland to be specific, and you know what the Dutch government there has been trying to do in the recent years? Trying to keep the Expats in..****sperately. Why? Because they all complain of the substandard service and medical care. What criteria did they use for coming up with their ranking? Willingness to administer Euthanasia? By the way, sperm dies EVERYDAY. They die in your balls when you don't use them, they die in the sink, they die in your wife's vagina. If something doesn't cause long term, lasting, or permanent damage, I don't understand where the health risks are. If your doctor says killing your sperm is bad for your health better look for another doctor. Every field is based on past, present and future science, research is on going, there are more motivations for doctors to keep themselves stupid that go beyond economics or politics, sometimes it sheer superiority complex--telling themselves that they know everything and more than anyone else, especially more than a bunch of small-dicked people taking control of their lives and actually making real progress. Don't take our word for it, don't take your doctor's, or your continent's ranking, why not take if from your own experience? If you've had minimal gains perhaps there's something else you should try. This place and these people posting their experiences, exchanging ideas, have nothing to sell, and if they ever do they seem to be selling them at cost price, but otherwise all recommendations are made based on personal experience by dedicated people like Big Al. If anything doesn't seem to be as good as they claim we are all welcome to say so. I have looked long and hard for PE groups and websites that don't look bogus, there isn't much out there, what I've found here is heaven sent. Hey, reconsider your decision, if you ever decide to come back we'll all be here to welcome you back.

Peace!

charlie8

[charlie8]

I mean these guys study 9 to 11 years before they can open a practise, so I bet they've learned the basics about penises and what's possible with them.

Years of study doesn't guarantee gospel truth. Information in medical books is a product of scientific study in many different fields. Unfortunately, societal taboos and a bunch of other possible factors have swept research on PE under the rug, or are not taken seriously. PE research would take time and is not easily replicable, and researchers already competing for funds will probably not go into PE. Come to think of it, after years of study why would a doctor or scientist spend his time on research that the scientific community won't admit to take seriously? The point is years of study or experience does not guarantee anything for a specific field. It's like your world history book. Each year it innevitably gets thicker. A few hundred years ago you might have only needed a couple of years to get a phd in the history of the world, nowadays it'll take you 11 years to gain a phd in the history of only one country. PE is only one field. Cancer is another. Not all doctors even after 11 years of study and perhaps another 11 years of experience will know everything there is to know about such a well-researched well-funded area of medicine. The chinese have developed their medicine for millenia but does the western medical community accept their methods? Of course not. And there are way more conspiracy theories and economic theories that have been argued around that topic more than you could ever come up with yourself. I'm not saying PE is really happening, I'm also not saying it's impossible, I'm just saying...I don't know yet and that you should employ better lines of reasoning in your quest for the truth, i.e. instead of years of study at med school. People here are not all defending themselves from being dismissed as funny hobbyists, this is not why they discuss this with you, they are simply trying to convince you to look harder and not give up so easily based on incorrect premises. If you've done your share, stuck to it consistently for a couple of years, and still not have gained much, then go ahead, tell us it didn't work for youl, good luck to us. Otherwise, enjoy reading the forum and start pulling on your dick.

charlie

p.s. high temperatures around the testes area causes temporary drop in sperm count NOT permanent infertility.